Amazing!

We have a new owner here now guys. Hopefully we can finally get some issues addressed. I wrote to the new president already about the league size problem here where we can currently only have 24 team leagues.
11/14/2024 6:52 PM
Kudos to you! I have registered my concerns about that problem many times with zero replies
11/15/2024 5:16 PM
Hopefully they will focus on the most important issue first: namely, the need to normalize the shooting for the different eras. WIS would be so much more enjoyable if all eras were normalized!
11/15/2024 6:44 PM
Posted by berkelon on 11/15/2024 6:45:00 PM (view original):
Hopefully they will focus on the most important issue first: namely, the need to normalize the shooting for the different eras. WIS would be so much more enjoyable if all eras were normalized!
Somewhere in the instructions they claim that it already is normalized, but we know it's not. But it can never really be right because there were no 3 pointers before the 79-80 season so the best they give old timers on 3 pointers is like 34%. There will never be any old timers who are 40% on threes, and there's no option to play without 3 pointers.

Like the DH in baseball, they should allow theme leagues to go with no 3 pointers if the commissioner wants it. It will be essential for old time leagues if and when the new owners allow leagues with less than 24 teams. If you want to have an 8 team progressive league that starts in the 50s you need to have leagues with no 3 pointers.
11/15/2024 7:54 PM
Posted by berkelon on 11/15/2024 6:45:00 PM (view original):
Hopefully they will focus on the most important issue first: namely, the need to normalize the shooting for the different eras. WIS would be so much more enjoyable if all eras were normalized!
This is definitely the most important thing along with fixing defense and some other things. League size is at best a secondary concern, if not tertiary. Fixing the issues that are endemic in the sim are paramount. These will stop attrition. 15 years ago, leagues would fill in a day or two. OLs may fill at a level of two per day. Now it takes weeks to fill leagues and OLs can take 4-7 days.

Fixing the sim makes smaller leagues moot since marketing the sim will drive users that will stay longer.
11/18/2024 9:21 AM
Posted by PBandJ on 11/18/2024 9:21:00 AM (view original):
Posted by berkelon on 11/15/2024 6:45:00 PM (view original):
Hopefully they will focus on the most important issue first: namely, the need to normalize the shooting for the different eras. WIS would be so much more enjoyable if all eras were normalized!
This is definitely the most important thing along with fixing defense and some other things. League size is at best a secondary concern, if not tertiary. Fixing the issues that are endemic in the sim are paramount. These will stop attrition. 15 years ago, leagues would fill in a day or two. OLs may fill at a level of two per day. Now it takes weeks to fill leagues and OLs can take 4-7 days.

Fixing the sim makes smaller leagues moot since marketing the sim will drive users that will stay longer.
You're wrong. There would be WAY more leagues going now if you could have 8 team and 12 team leagues. Most 24 team leagues I have been in have had a few owners with 2 teams. That was the only way to fill them. Only a small segment of owners even know or care about normalization of shooting percentages.
11/18/2024 9:54 AM
Posted by savoybg on 11/18/2024 9:54:00 AM (view original):
Posted by PBandJ on 11/18/2024 9:21:00 AM (view original):
Posted by berkelon on 11/15/2024 6:45:00 PM (view original):
Hopefully they will focus on the most important issue first: namely, the need to normalize the shooting for the different eras. WIS would be so much more enjoyable if all eras were normalized!
This is definitely the most important thing along with fixing defense and some other things. League size is at best a secondary concern, if not tertiary. Fixing the issues that are endemic in the sim are paramount. These will stop attrition. 15 years ago, leagues would fill in a day or two. OLs may fill at a level of two per day. Now it takes weeks to fill leagues and OLs can take 4-7 days.

Fixing the sim makes smaller leagues moot since marketing the sim will drive users that will stay longer.
You're wrong. There would be WAY more leagues going now if you could have 8 team and 12 team leagues. Most 24 team leagues I have been in have had a few owners with 2 teams. That was the only way to fill them. Only a small segment of owners even know or care about normalization of shooting percentages.
I made a popular Reddit post about WIS and what we can learn from the results of games in the sim (it was in the top 5 posts of r/NBA for a couple of days). 99.9% of the readers had no idea what WIS was. The thread had over 500 comments, mostly from people who had never visited the site.

Several of them commented that things are skewed for certain eras and that normalization needs to be a thing. These are potential customers who showed interest in joining but did not due to bad era-normalization or other issues. I’ll let you guess how many of them decided not to join due to league sizes (Hint:zero)

This is a first hand, high effort push that I made to bring users over personally, and zero of them cared about league size.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/cGZ8r0IswK
11/18/2024 10:10 AM
Posted by dBKC on 11/18/2024 10:10:00 AM (view original):
Posted by savoybg on 11/18/2024 9:54:00 AM (view original):
Posted by PBandJ on 11/18/2024 9:21:00 AM (view original):
Posted by berkelon on 11/15/2024 6:45:00 PM (view original):
Hopefully they will focus on the most important issue first: namely, the need to normalize the shooting for the different eras. WIS would be so much more enjoyable if all eras were normalized!
This is definitely the most important thing along with fixing defense and some other things. League size is at best a secondary concern, if not tertiary. Fixing the issues that are endemic in the sim are paramount. These will stop attrition. 15 years ago, leagues would fill in a day or two. OLs may fill at a level of two per day. Now it takes weeks to fill leagues and OLs can take 4-7 days.

Fixing the sim makes smaller leagues moot since marketing the sim will drive users that will stay longer.
You're wrong. There would be WAY more leagues going now if you could have 8 team and 12 team leagues. Most 24 team leagues I have been in have had a few owners with 2 teams. That was the only way to fill them. Only a small segment of owners even know or care about normalization of shooting percentages.
I made a popular Reddit post about WIS and what we can learn from the results of games in the sim (it was in the top 5 posts of r/NBA for a couple of days). 99.9% of the readers had no idea what WIS was. The thread had over 500 comments, mostly from people who had never visited the site.

Several of them commented that things are skewed for certain eras and that normalization needs to be a thing. These are potential customers who showed interest in joining but did not due to bad era-normalization or other issues. I’ll let you guess how many of them decided not to join due to league sizes (Hint:zero)

This is a first hand, high effort push that I made to bring users over personally, and zero of them cared about league size.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/cGZ8r0IswK
That's because none of them even knew that you needed 24 teams to have a league and how difficult it is to start a private league and get 24 owners. MOST people don't care about players from the 50s and 60s and even 70s so normalization would not matter to them.

And I read the post on reddit and you presented it as a way of ranking the greatest players rather than as a chance to build your own team. You gave them lots of info from your slanted view of good things and bad things about the product without letting them know how tough it is to get 24 different people to come into a league. Therefore that thread is entirely irrelevant in my opinion. You need to ask people who have actually used the product for a period of time rather than those who have not used the product and are just going by your spin on things.

I did not have a team here for well over a year because several really good themes I came up with could not get 24 owners and I did not want to play in standard leagues with clones and with players like James and Curry and Rodman and others being on at least half of the teams in every league.

Fixing the normalization will only affect sophisticated owners while allowing 8 and 12 and 16 team leagues will effect EVERYBODY. You can't even have a real progressive league here because there is not near enough players for a 24 team league until the 1988-89 season.
11/18/2024 11:38 AM (edited)
Posted by savoybg on 11/18/2024 11:28:00 AM (view original):
Posted by dBKC on 11/18/2024 10:10:00 AM (view original):
Posted by savoybg on 11/18/2024 9:54:00 AM (view original):
Posted by PBandJ on 11/18/2024 9:21:00 AM (view original):
Posted by berkelon on 11/15/2024 6:45:00 PM (view original):
Hopefully they will focus on the most important issue first: namely, the need to normalize the shooting for the different eras. WIS would be so much more enjoyable if all eras were normalized!
This is definitely the most important thing along with fixing defense and some other things. League size is at best a secondary concern, if not tertiary. Fixing the issues that are endemic in the sim are paramount. These will stop attrition. 15 years ago, leagues would fill in a day or two. OLs may fill at a level of two per day. Now it takes weeks to fill leagues and OLs can take 4-7 days.

Fixing the sim makes smaller leagues moot since marketing the sim will drive users that will stay longer.
You're wrong. There would be WAY more leagues going now if you could have 8 team and 12 team leagues. Most 24 team leagues I have been in have had a few owners with 2 teams. That was the only way to fill them. Only a small segment of owners even know or care about normalization of shooting percentages.
I made a popular Reddit post about WIS and what we can learn from the results of games in the sim (it was in the top 5 posts of r/NBA for a couple of days). 99.9% of the readers had no idea what WIS was. The thread had over 500 comments, mostly from people who had never visited the site.

Several of them commented that things are skewed for certain eras and that normalization needs to be a thing. These are potential customers who showed interest in joining but did not due to bad era-normalization or other issues. I’ll let you guess how many of them decided not to join due to league sizes (Hint:zero)

This is a first hand, high effort push that I made to bring users over personally, and zero of them cared about league size.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/cGZ8r0IswK
That's because none of them even knew that you needed 24 teams to have a league and how difficult it is to start a private league and get 24 owners. MOST people don't care about players from the 50s and 60s and even 70s so normalization would not matter to them.
I literally recruited multiple people from that post to come play here and held their hands all the way through entering a team. And there are many things along that process that needed fixing before team leagues, but okay. You’re just obsessed with this being the one and only thing you want fixed and no amount of data will ever convince you otherwise.
11/18/2024 11:38 AM
Posted by dBKC on 11/18/2024 11:38:00 AM (view original):
Posted by savoybg on 11/18/2024 11:28:00 AM (view original):
Posted by dBKC on 11/18/2024 10:10:00 AM (view original):
Posted by savoybg on 11/18/2024 9:54:00 AM (view original):
Posted by PBandJ on 11/18/2024 9:21:00 AM (view original):
Posted by berkelon on 11/15/2024 6:45:00 PM (view original):
Hopefully they will focus on the most important issue first: namely, the need to normalize the shooting for the different eras. WIS would be so much more enjoyable if all eras were normalized!
This is definitely the most important thing along with fixing defense and some other things. League size is at best a secondary concern, if not tertiary. Fixing the issues that are endemic in the sim are paramount. These will stop attrition. 15 years ago, leagues would fill in a day or two. OLs may fill at a level of two per day. Now it takes weeks to fill leagues and OLs can take 4-7 days.

Fixing the sim makes smaller leagues moot since marketing the sim will drive users that will stay longer.
You're wrong. There would be WAY more leagues going now if you could have 8 team and 12 team leagues. Most 24 team leagues I have been in have had a few owners with 2 teams. That was the only way to fill them. Only a small segment of owners even know or care about normalization of shooting percentages.
I made a popular Reddit post about WIS and what we can learn from the results of games in the sim (it was in the top 5 posts of r/NBA for a couple of days). 99.9% of the readers had no idea what WIS was. The thread had over 500 comments, mostly from people who had never visited the site.

Several of them commented that things are skewed for certain eras and that normalization needs to be a thing. These are potential customers who showed interest in joining but did not due to bad era-normalization or other issues. I’ll let you guess how many of them decided not to join due to league sizes (Hint:zero)

This is a first hand, high effort push that I made to bring users over personally, and zero of them cared about league size.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/s/cGZ8r0IswK
That's because none of them even knew that you needed 24 teams to have a league and how difficult it is to start a private league and get 24 owners. MOST people don't care about players from the 50s and 60s and even 70s so normalization would not matter to them.
I literally recruited multiple people from that post to come play here and held their hands all the way through entering a team. And there are many things along that process that needed fixing before team leagues, but okay. You’re just obsessed with this being the one and only thing you want fixed and no amount of data will ever convince you otherwise.
What's multiple people? 4? 5?

11/18/2024 11:40 AM
So far the new owner has not meant schit to making any changes with this NBA game. It's been almost 6 months now and not a thing has been changed.
4/11/2025 10:07 PM
Posted by savoybg on 11/18/2024 9:54:00 AM (view original):
Posted by PBandJ on 11/18/2024 9:21:00 AM (view original):
Posted by berkelon on 11/15/2024 6:45:00 PM (view original):
Hopefully they will focus on the most important issue first: namely, the need to normalize the shooting for the different eras. WIS would be so much more enjoyable if all eras were normalized!
This is definitely the most important thing along with fixing defense and some other things. League size is at best a secondary concern, if not tertiary. Fixing the issues that are endemic in the sim are paramount. These will stop attrition. 15 years ago, leagues would fill in a day or two. OLs may fill at a level of two per day. Now it takes weeks to fill leagues and OLs can take 4-7 days.

Fixing the sim makes smaller leagues moot since marketing the sim will drive users that will stay longer.
You're wrong. There would be WAY more leagues going now if you could have 8 team and 12 team leagues. Most 24 team leagues I have been in have had a few owners with 2 teams. That was the only way to fill them. Only a small segment of owners even know or care about normalization of shooting percentages.
I missed this remark...

Imagine someone ignoring the wisdom of a person who first played here in the 1990's with just a blanket "You're wrong." I usually do not remark on things like this, or let them get under my skin, but since you caught me in a foul mood...away we go.

1. Virtually everyone here says that this is not a significant issue. You continue to tilt against windmills with a level of hubris seen by few. You do not play regularly, and you started this diatribe early on here. Learn to listen to people who understand real issues.

2. This would create a mess of the winner's compensation model and the cost of the leagues. If the price paid stays the same, then the winner compensation goes down significantly. If the price increases to maintain current comp models for winners, then the cost of the league increases in kind. Since the great unknown is what the cost of each league is to run and the fixed costs that exist, a smaller league option would possibly be wreck financially.

3. You think that by increasing supply, then demand will follow, but there is no evidence of that here. I am probably the median age on the site, and I am almost 50. No one is knocking down the door and there is hardly any marketing to support this. The amount of investment that needs to be made in the marketing and architecture to make that happen is not insignificant. Do you think that the heavy users on this site are going to start spending more? Probably not. We are interested in ongoing leagues and very unique and interesting themes. We even eschew certain league because of the person starting the league, or running the draft.

4. Your assumptions are based on just that, assumptions. There is no practical evidence that more people will come. This is the biggest problem every owner has had, and we will see with this owner (although I think there is some promise with the new owner). The abject failure of marketing. We can complain about all kinds of BS, whether it is your BS league size crap, our era normalization ish, or fixing some other garbage, the greatest fix is marketing. No matter what happens there will be churn. Using the marketing dollars to make improvements would be ideal, because even with a perfect site there will be churn due to loss of funds loss of interest, or lack of time. All that has happened over time is that most users leave and there is no one to replace them. The marketing has to be two-fold marketing outside of the site and driving SEO also focused social media ads, and marketing on the site regularly to inform users about changes.

5. When you make your left-handed remark that few users know or care about normalization of shooting percentages is either you lying, being hard-headed, or just stupid. I have heard you lament how you can't use the players of your youth. Baylor is unusable and is a top 20 all-time player for example. Fixing the sim to recognize the unique contributions of legends and being able to contextualize their greatness with current stars is an ideal situation. Go look at the last ODL draft...do you think everyone there is a moron, or do you think era normalization needs repair. I drafted Bill Russell in either the 4th or 5th round. By my count he is the 3rd greatest player ever. Magic goes in the third round or beyond. Anthony Davis goes in the top 10 and Rudy Gobert is a first rounder that goes before Olajuwon. The top 4 of ODL is routinely LeBron, Wilt, Curry, and Giannis. Shooting percentages is the beginning of normalization. There needs to be adjustment for pace to effect TO% and foul rate as well. Repairing defense to not only meet statistical dominance and awards, but also to understand era context is critical.

Once the basketball sim has 100-150 unique users then and only then would it make sense to have variable league size since that gets above the point where the profitability can be maintained above expenses and can generate profitability on it's own!
4/12/2025 10:45 AM
I don't play regularly because most of the ideas I have for leagues will not get 24 owners. I personally have tried to start leagues that have gotten enough owners to have an 8 team or a 12 team league, but could not get enough for a 24 team league. This has happened at least 5 times to me. And even the leagues that I did get to 24 owners with had to have at least 3 or 4 owners who took two teams apiece.

Nobody uses Kobe much...not because of normalization needed, but because he is far overrated. Same with Russell, and many other pre-70s players.

We have a big disagreement on Russell. You have him as the third greatest player, I have him as the 22nd greatest player. My rankings are based on math. Yours are just being pulled out of your *** with no mathematical basis for him being the third greatest player.

Here are my all time rankings of the most valuable players. My system measures the value that each player created both for their career and their 7 season peak, as well as their level of play in the playoffs. Not sure what yours measures as you seem to be just pulling them out of your *** if Russell is #3.

MOST VALUABLE PLAYERS ALL TIME (soon to be updated after this season's playoffs)
01. Kareem - 228.52
02. Wilt - 222.13
03. LeBron - 220.29
04. Jordan - 203.96
05. Mailman - 193.64
06. Chris Paul - 180.58
07. Nowitzki - 180.29
08. Duncan - 177.17
09. Oscar - 174.35
10. Stockton - 173.19
11. Admiral - 170.16
12. Garnett - 168.03
13. Shaq - 167.89
14. Gilmore - 164.84
15. Barkley - 163.89
16. Durant - 161.57
17. Dr. J - 160.96
18. Moses - 157.55
19. Harden - 155.77
20. Kobe - 155.62
21. West - 155.35
22. Russell - 152.61
23. Magic- 151.85
24. Olajuwon - 150.08
25. Miller - 148.40
26. Bird - 145.23
27. Schayes - 139.84
28. Pettit - 138.52
29. Issel - 138.40
30. Mikan - 137.19
31. Curry - 135.38
32. Dwight Howard - 132.95
33. Jokic - 132.46
34. Paul Pierce - 132.35
35. Pau Gasol - 131.69
36. Payton - 131.13
37. Drexler - 129.80
38. Dantley - 129.74
39. Ray Allen - 126.57
40. Parish - 126.02
41. Bellamy - 125.62
42. Wade - 124.88
43. Nash - 123.61
44. Ewing - 123.31
45. Greek Freak - 123.30
46. Frazier - 122.86
47. Barry - 122.25
48. Billups - 121.40
49. Pippen - 121.34
50. Havlicek - 121.02
51. Marion - 120.46
52. Kidd - 119.68
53. Anthony Davis - 118.68
54. Arizin - 117.78
55. Lanier - 117.52
56. Gervin - 116.15
57. Jimmy Butler - 116.00
58. Vince Carter - 115.65
59. Dominique - 115.55
60. McHale - 115.23
61. Westbrook - 115.21
62. Hayes - 114.96
63. Lillard - 114.12
64. Gobert - 113.95
65. Chet Walker - 113.76
66. Bailey Howell - 113.24
67. Aldridge - 111.63
68. Baylor - 111.36
69. Mutombo - 110.53
70. McGrady - 109.74
71. Kawhi Leonard - 109.73
72. Nance - 109.67
73. Horace Grant - 109.33
74. Zelmo Beaty - 109.12
75. Ginobli - 107.63
76. Ed Macauley - 107.51
77. Brand - 107.42
78. Terry Porter - 107.15
79. Hornacek - 106.01
80. Bosh - 105.77
81. Johnston - 105.65
82. Unseld - 105.60
83. Buck Williams - 105.30
84. Iverson - 104.93
85. Horford - 104.71
86. Sikma - 104.59
87. Schrempf - 104.02
88. Stoudemire - 103.71
89. Lowry - 103.17
90. Parker - 103.05
91. Kevin Johnson - 103.02
92. Carmelo - 102.99
93. McAdoo - 102.88
94. English - 101.81
95. Laimbeer - 101.33
96. Jerry Lucas - 101.26
97. DeAndre Jordan - 100.69
98. Cheeks - 99.50
99. Rasheed - 99.37
100. Moncrief - 99.26
101. DeRozan - 98.96
102. Thorpe - 98.90
103. Shawn Kemp - 98.36
104. Eddie Jones - 97.99
105. Hal Greer - 97.73
106. Grant Hill - 97.47
107. Tyson Chandler - 97.40
108. Kevin Love - 97.13
109. Sam Jones - 97.00
110. Cliff Hagan - 96.46
111. Jason Terry - 96.32
112. Mike Conley - 96.25
113. Mourning - 96.15
114. Ben Wallace - 96.10
115. Andre Miller - 96.03
116. Paul George - 95.17
117. Bobby Jones - 94.45
118. Marques Johnson - 94.44
119. Blake Griffin - 94.29
120. Mullin - 94.13
121. Cowens - 94.34
122. Hersey Hawkins - 93.90
123. Cummings - 93.38
124. AC Green - 93.38
125. Lenny Wilkins - 92.77
126. Kyrie Irving - 92.60
127. Webber - 92.52
128. Anthony Mason - 92.40
129. Mikkelsen - 92.23
130. Divac - 92.00
131. Iguodala - 91.63
132. Cassell - 91.57
133. Glen Rice - 91.11
134. Bob Cousy - 91.00
135. Rashard Lewis - 90.90
136. Worthy - 90.68
137. Tim Hardaway - 90.64
138. Bill Sharman - 90.30
139. Rodman - 89.97
140. Millsap - 89.92
141. Willis Reed - 89.79
142. Marc Gasol - 89.68
143. Stojakovic - 89.57
144. Isiah - 89.50
145. Steve Smith - 89.42
146. Archibald - 89.36
147. Billy Cunningham - 88.98
148. Jamison - 88.68
149. Jimmy Jones - 88.51
150. Connie Hawkins - 88.46
151. Larry Foust - 88.42
152. Lou Hudson - 88.36

You can't even have a REAL progressive league here as there are not enough players in a season to fill 24 teams until like 1989.

The baseball game here allows several different size leagues. Why not the basketball game? It's not a difficult thing to code.

I'd love to see both things done, a better game, and a bunch more league sizes. Neither will likely make the regulars like yourself play more often. The smaller leagues (8, 12, 16 teams) would allow several progressive leagues to start up with 8 teams and go through all of the 50s and 60s seasons that are available, and then expand to 12 teams when the ABA starts.

We're not enemies here Chewmaster. However, what I most want will take little coding work and what you want will take a ton of work to accomplish.

I'd also like to see options whether to use or not use 3 pointers, which would be important to playing leagues from before there was a 3 point line in use. The baseball game that I play at Imagine sports gives you like 15 different options. League size, Ohtani DH rule or not, DH or not, extra innings with or without runner on 2B, active roster size (25 or 26). pickoff rule, 2 throws or unlimited. and several others. The main one for basketball would be 3 point shots on or off.

Anyway, this new owner has not made one shred of difference to this sim.
4/12/2025 4:17 PM
I would like to hear your reasoning for why you think Dan Issel was a better player than Steph Curry.
4/12/2025 4:27 PM
Posted by Midge on 4/12/2025 4:27:00 PM (view original):
I would like to hear your reasoning for why you think Dan Issel was a better player than Steph Curry.
Right now his career is more valuable because he played about 7000 more minutes than Curry has. You're gonna see that if you compare a still active player to a great player whose career has been completed already.

Issel's WS/48 for his career is .181
Curry's WS/48 right now is .196

As Curry plays more minutes he will likely catch and pass Issel. Curry's level of play is about 11% better than Issel's level of play, but Curry is also getting into the decline phase of his career. Last season his WS/48 was only .142. This year it's at .170, but that is still below his career average. Curry has just 5 seasons with 10 or more win shares. Issel has 9 seasons of 10 or more win shares. I deduct a little from each of Issel's ABA seasons as the level of play was clearly below the NBA level of play, but at this point in time Issel's career has produced more value than Steph's career.

By the way, if there were no 3 point shots Curry would not even be close to a great player. MOST of his value comes from being able to shoot over 40% from 3 while taking a lot of threes. If he played in the 60s and 70s he would not even be an all star.

Issel currently has 14.8 more career win shares.

4/12/2025 5:09 PM (edited)
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