Posted by greener10 on 5/23/2024 10:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ksparks on 5/23/2024 4:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by greener10 on 5/23/2024 4:01:00 PM (view original):
It definitely exists. I haven't fully triangulated it yet but I see teams that I'm confident are doing it. I'm also getting more confident that it's isolated to pro set because i haven't seen anyone doing it in any other formation.

Ok...who are these coaches so we can join in the analytical observation?

I would never call a coach out until im 100% certain (which in my case means I can replicate the behavior). That said, go look at the passing leaders, see what they have in common, and you can start to piece it all together.

One does not have to "call out" a coach. The question is: "what is the hack"? Not so much WHO is doing the hack.

I don't believe there is a "cheat code", but I DO believe that there are enough formation and personnel alignment combinations that SOME of them give better results than one might expect. That is, in fact, the entire basis of the game.

I have a 92 speed RB at D2 and he CANNOT make the edge. Some players perform and some do not.

So, if one suspects (for example) that Pro Set, pass, very short, to RB2 produces results that are OUTLIERS in the data set....please tell us that. Then the rest of us can look at the data WE see....and try to prove or disprove.

Now, IMO, that is not a smart thing to do. If you have some combination that gets you better results than some other combination...why would you share it in public? Every game I play I'm trying to find the best combination that gives me the best yards gained, and my opponent the least yards gained on a per play basis. However, I only look at a FEW variables, because I dont' have the software or the interest in doing a HUGE data study and reverse engineering the WIS software.

In any case, it's not cheating...unless someone is going into the engine and manipulating it. Using the engine that exists and maximizing the results it can delivery is good game play.

Katzphang, I'm trying to make sense of this: "When this current update was being tested there was a big curfuffle about player ratings influence vs randomization of outcomes. As it turned out, the outcome "buckets" were stated to be determined first, then the second set of "buckets" would be the influence of the player ratings.
As I understood this it would mean - regardless of the player ratings involved the game would decide on the level of success - a long gain vs no gain or loss."

If "regardless of the player ratings," then based on WHAT?

Posted by DeBeque on 5/27/2024 8:35:00 PM (view original):
Katzphang, I'm trying to make sense of this: "When this current update was being tested there was a big curfuffle about player ratings influence vs randomization of outcomes. As it turned out, the outcome "buckets" were stated to be determined first, then the second set of "buckets" would be the influence of the player ratings.
As I understood this it would mean - regardless of the player ratings involved the game would decide on the level of success - a long gain vs no gain or loss."

If "regardless of the player ratings," then based on WHAT?

My SIMPLE view of this situation is that the game does not want 98yd TD runs on every play when two teams are lopsided in talent. So, before the talent comes into the equation, the game engine has a range of potential outcomes that could occur (98yd td is way out on the tail of the distribution). So the engine rolls the dice for a given offense vs defense (and I assume field position, down and distance, etc), and based on those things the range of outcomes could be -3 to 54 yds gained (which is only ONE range of outcomes...I suppose there are thousands of these ranges). THEN it compares/factors the talent levels of both teams and rolls the dice again to choose which result will occur based on the previously chosen range of outcomes. Let's just say...28 yds.

So...even though you have Eric Dickerson playing against Little Sisters of the Poor Middle School, he is not gonna gain 10,000 yards in a single game.

This "range of outcomes" was REALLY jacked up when this engine was launched. You could not run yourself through a group of paraplegic cheerleaders with the Wishbone. However, you could RUN WILD with your WR in the Shotgun. They adjusted those two things (and some other similar issues) and what we have now is the result. IMO the Wishbone run is still not as good as it was in the previous engine, but now...you get the weird outcome of being able to pass like a crazy fool with the wishbone.

Thanks, Harris. Okay, "So the engine rolls the dice for a given offense vs defense..." But WHAT about the offense and WHAT about the defense? Specifically, what is tested against what?

If its not exactly how it works id bet harris is pretty close. I cant imagine what someone could be doing besides exclusively targeting certain receivers on certain plays. Jeffs te was frosh and his o line wasnt the best bust serviceable. Imo his qb has been underrated in this thread. I have him as a 77 which is crossing into exceptional territory. Ive made a few final fours with less than that recently. Some ratings mean more than others especially if you put your guys in the right situations to take advantage of what they’re good at. I am inclined to believe realist and airraid because they know much more about this game than me, but i cant fathom what the “hack” could be and id need some better evidence.

I saw some talk of how to defend a qb performing like that. I would have 4 on the line pretty much all the time, cover medium, no blitzing unless im losing late, and have at least a 10 or 15% chance to call run for the same superstitious reasons i dont put both of my thumbs directly down the center of a golf club. I couldnt tell you if the run/pass call has any effect, but id always rather be at least semi balanced.

Judging only how he played usc its likely he would have wooped me but thats what i would have run if i had to play him. If realist was blitzing a corner thats a bold strategy but it seemed to pay off. Penn st did pretty good this year in warner.

Posted by realist9900 on 5/22/2024 3:22:00 PM (view original):
When a complete insider says this " the offensive settings can manipulate the defense into being out of "position". The method is not in line with what one would expect to see in an actual football game, hence it goes contrary to what a coach would be able to do in the real world. It's essentially mastering the ones and zeros of this digital game beyond what is logical for a football game. The result is consistent big chunk plays, regardless of quality of the offensive player with the ball. I don't know the specific details but again, I've seen the results.

You would think this would get people's attention. More and more people are learning how to do this. Some are subtle about it, some not so much.

In Div1A, when I see a QB, ranked 31, from a small market school throw for 1830 yards in three playoff game at a 70% clip it's quite an eye opener. The players being thrown to are ranked 63-120. So typical small conference talent. Players who wouldn't even start on the teams they are putting up those ridiculous numbers against.

This exploit is out there and it's real. Likely nothing can be done about it since it's old code. It sure ruins the game for those playing legit and not using it. Common problem in all online games, but at least in other games they at least talk about it and try to fix it.

Trust me, I don’t know the cheat code. It does seem as though a couple more people every season learn it. This manipulation is the reason that on 3rd and long in the nickel a coach with NDB can consistently complete 18 yard completions despite your having a 3-4 player numerical advantage in the secondary. It’s mind numbing.

Posted by DeBeque on 5/27/2024 8:35:00 PM (view original):
Katzphang, I'm trying to make sense of this: "When this current update was being tested there was a big curfuffle about player ratings influence vs randomization of outcomes. As it turned out, the outcome "buckets" were stated to be determined first, then the second set of "buckets" would be the influence of the player ratings.
As I understood this it would mean - regardless of the player ratings involved the game would decide on the level of success - a long gain vs no gain or loss."

If "regardless of the player ratings," then based on WHAT?

What harris described is pretty close. As I remember the discussion on the question the response of what happens is - 1) the SIM determines from the selected play from the O gameplan whether the play will go or be stopped based on the settings of the O and D. 2) If it is a go - based on the settings it will be deposited randomly into a selected "bucket" of possible outcomes. So still no influences of team or player rating advantages. 3) Then - team comparisons are taken (say DL vs OL) this will be the first modification of the "bucket" result but will not change which "bucket" the result will occur. 4) Player vs player ratings will further modify the result to end up with the final yardage. I also thing that in #3 and #4 there are random occurrences which interject INT, fumbles, sacks etc.

So how does this relate to what happens? My guess - in relation to the OP observations are: If the O gameplan is 100% in one depth to pass, and the D gameplan does not cover that distance, completions will be higher. If even a marginal player has a mismatch (say a fast TE vs a slow LB) the yardage may reflect the difference.

It is all speculation, but this is close to what was discussed. The player ratings advantages were made secondary to the randomization of the game.

Posted by airraiddevil on 5/26/2024 6:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by taladar on 5/26/2024 3:43:00 PM (view original):
If a coach knows how to manipulate the GD engine by actions they take to get a desired outcome far more often than not I don't see how that isn't cheating? It's not getting better players in recruiting or training better or game planning better but manipulating the game itself to win.

I'm not claiming to o know who does this or anything but this is how majique made it sound to me that the engine was being manipulated by some little known means to give the coach a decided advantage.

For sure not "cheating". It is just likely a scenario where 5 to 8 coaches have insight that other coaches do not and this insight gives them an advantage -- and they are not going to share beyond who they have already shared it with. That is their right.

It is what its...I still have fun.

To me it is 100% cheating, IRL you cant manipulate the game itself to give u an advantage. If a guy is manipulating the engine in a way unforseen and unwanted by the creators that is plain and simple pure cheating. They have eliminated exploits in the past why is this any different?

If you can make it so you beat me everytime regardless of my talent vs your talent what are we even doing then? What is the point if better talent and better game plans and figuring out how you want to distribute training if in the end its all going to be crapped on by someone manipulating the engine itself to put you at a permanent disadvantage and nothing actually matters but being able to find the most exploits??

That is neither fun nor fair if the intent of the game is to put people on an even playing field and let the recruiting and players and coaching decide the day.

Posted by taladar on 5/26/2024 3:43:00 PM (view original):
If a coach knows how to manipulate the GD engine by actions they take to get a desired outcome far more often than not I don't see how that isn't cheating? It's not getting better players in recruiting or training better or game planning better but manipulating the game itself to win.

I'm not claiming to o know who does this or anything but this is how majique made it sound to me that the engine was being manipulated by some little known means to give the coach a decided advantage.

There is no doubt that there are some coaches that can get more out of their personnel than others. Does not mean there is a "hack"! Maybe, just maybe these coaches have put forth more effort and experimenting than the rest of us feel inclined to do. I'm too dumb and lazy to dive head deep into the X's and O's of this computer game, and nothing is 100% even when they get it all right! What's the difference between knowing how to get your best guy the ball, and manipulating your roster to have 40+ Seniors like Sportsdouche? I feel as though if there was indeed a hack of some sort that it would have been leaked somewhere along the lines by a coach that has stopped playing the game. I feel safe in saying that if majique knew the hack, he would have told everyone before he left!

Posted by taladar on 5/28/2024 4:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by airraiddevil on 5/26/2024 6:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by taladar on 5/26/2024 3:43:00 PM (view original):
If a coach knows how to manipulate the GD engine by actions they take to get a desired outcome far more often than not I don't see how that isn't cheating? It's not getting better players in recruiting or training better or game planning better but manipulating the game itself to win.

I'm not claiming to o know who does this or anything but this is how majique made it sound to me that the engine was being manipulated by some little known means to give the coach a decided advantage.

For sure not "cheating". It is just likely a scenario where 5 to 8 coaches have insight that other coaches do not and this insight gives them an advantage -- and they are not going to share beyond who they have already shared it with. That is their right.

It is what its...I still have fun.

To me it is 100% cheating, IRL you cant manipulate the game itself to give u an advantage. If a guy is manipulating the engine in a way unforseen and unwanted by the creators that is plain and simple pure cheating. They have eliminated exploits in the past why is this any different?

If you can make it so you beat me everytime regardless of my talent vs your talent what are we even doing then? What is the point if better talent and better game plans and figuring out how you want to distribute training if in the end its all going to be crapped on by someone manipulating the engine itself to put you at a permanent disadvantage and nothing actually matters but being able to find the most exploits??

That is neither fun nor fair if the intent of the game is to put people on an even playing field and let the recruiting and players and coaching decide the day.

Wait, so you mean in the NFL or NCAA you can't put your #1 WR in motion or in a bunch to get him matched up against a LB or a DB who is the Nickel? That's what formations and motion are all about is exploiting the defense and it's weakest point. Even the best coaches get beat so nothing is 100% solid in this game! Tell me this isn't ironic, you ask what is the point of better talent, better game plans and figuring out how you want distribute training? Maybe these guys have already done all that and this is what the results are!!!! That's the point in doing it, to figure out what they have figured out! Are you telling me that if you spent 5 years trying to figure out this game and it's nuances, that you would just divulge that to a guy that just started playing the game so that he could have the same results it took you 5 years to figure out?

Alright, thanks katz and harris. So the thinking is that the first test is play call vs play call, yielding a wide range of possible outcomes. Then, staying within that predetermined range of outcomes presumably team factors are tested, like offensive set vs defensive set modified by such things as total FIQ of the players on the field, fatigue and possibly other factors; then broad-brush tests like grossly compounded OL ratings vs grossly compounded DL ratings; and finally working its way down to some sort of individual vs individual tests. Okay, I accept your thinking and I'm gonna want to percolate that for a while.

And I apologize for hijacking the thread from the course set by the OP regarding the appearance of a powerful hack being employed in some circumstances. It does certainly seem that for the wildly skewed performances noted in the OP there would have to be influences not accounted for by the intended operation of the engine in determining play outcomes as described in this thread. The proper steps in determining a play outcome are simply too complex and too balanced to account for such consistently outlying performance. I sincerely hope WIS looks into this.

Posted by jhunterz on 5/28/2024 4:40:00 PM (view original):

Posted by taladar on 5/28/2024 4:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by airraiddevil on 5/26/2024 6:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by taladar on 5/26/2024 3:43:00 PM (view original):
If a coach knows how to manipulate the GD engine by actions they take to get a desired outcome far more often than not I don't see how that isn't cheating? It's not getting better players in recruiting or training better or game planning better but manipulating the game itself to win.

I'm not claiming to o know who does this or anything but this is how majique made it sound to me that the engine was being manipulated by some little known means to give the coach a decided advantage.

For sure not "cheating". It is just likely a scenario where 5 to 8 coaches have insight that other coaches do not and this insight gives them an advantage -- and they are not going to share beyond who they have already shared it with. That is their right.

It is what its...I still have fun.

To me it is 100% cheating, IRL you cant manipulate the game itself to give u an advantage. If a guy is manipulating the engine in a way unforseen and unwanted by the creators that is plain and simple pure cheating. They have eliminated exploits in the past why is this any different?

If you can make it so you beat me everytime regardless of my talent vs your talent what are we even doing then? What is the point if better talent and better game plans and figuring out how you want to distribute training if in the end its all going to be crapped on by someone manipulating the engine itself to put you at a permanent disadvantage and nothing actually matters but being able to find the most exploits??

That is neither fun nor fair if the intent of the game is to put people on an even playing field and let the recruiting and players and coaching decide the day.

Wait, so you mean in the NFL or NCAA you can't put your #1 WR in motion or in a bunch to get him matched up against a LB or a DB who is the Nickel? That's what formations and motion are all about is exploiting the defense and it's weakest point. Even the best coaches get beat so nothing is 100% solid in this game! Tell me this isn't ironic, you ask what is the point of better talent, better game plans and figuring out how you want distribute training? Maybe these guys have already done all that and this is what the results are!!!! That's the point in doing it, to figure out what they have figured out! Are you telling me that if you spent 5 years trying to figure out this game and it's nuances, that you would just divulge that to a guy that just started playing the game so that he could have the same results it took you 5 years to figure out?

the offensive settings can manipulate the defense into being out of "position". The method is not in line with what one would expect to see in an actual football game, hence it goes contrary to what a coach would be able to do in the real world. It's essentially mastering the ones and zeros of this digital game beyond what is logical for a football game. The result is consistent big chunk plays, regardless of quality of the offensive player with the ball. I don't know the specific details but again, I've seen the results.

If thats true then it says "It goes contrary to what a coach would be able to do in the real world". The things you describe can be countered by the other team and coach this exploit can not. If its being described as mastering ones and zeros beyond what is logical for a football game. thats gaming the engine and that has nothing to do with PLAYING the game. Thats using the computer and engine to your advantage.... Why are yall so vehement this is A-OK somehow?? If someone physically manipulated the code so they could always win would that somehow also be ok?

So what am I not supposed to be okay with? Not a single person here has given even the smallest ounce of proof to this conspiracy! There are plenty of coaches who seem to think that there is something that they don't know about the game, and you can add me to that list. Saying that, I am not implying that coaches are doing anything wrong but more of they know how to set up their team, recruit certain players and utilize these players and roster to the maximum. Until someone can prove anything, you guys just sound like a bunch of jealous coaches who want someone to give them the golden ticket to winning in the game!

How can a conversation about a “hack” go on for three pages and still not one person has actually said what the hack is? All I’ve heard so far is that there are some coaches who are better than others. It honestly just sounds whiny at this point. If it’s so damn obvious, someone please say what it is. And don’t say “look at the top teams and you’ll see a trend” b/c of course you will, you’ll see that those teams are good!

Somebody please move the conversation forward or stop talking about it.