Votto’s a surefire HoFer,

Sabathia will get in on longevity,

and Greinke’s been pretty consistent since he left the Brewers.

But I agree with the opinion JV will get in based on his postseason performances, and Greinke will take a little while.

But I wonder what the differences in the advanced stats are because Greinke’s been in the NL West the past 7 seasons

JV will get in based on his postseason performances?? 9 games with an OPS of .574??? Did you mean to say he'd get in despite his lack of any real post season experience?

Posted by wylie715 on 5/10/2019 5:41:00 PM (view original):
JV will get in based on his postseason performances?? 9 games with an OPS of .574??? Did you mean to say he'd get in despite his lack of any real post season experience?

Justin Verlander

that JV..thought he meant Joey Votto. my bad!

No on CC - just not good enough enough years: above average is not good (although the same formula worked for Jeter)
No on Votto - especially given he looks totally done and is killing his average yearly numbers.
Yes on Verlander and Molina

Posted by wylie715 on 5/10/2019 7:34:00 PM (view original):
that JV..thought he meant Joey Votto. my bad!

I thought he mean Joey Votto too!

Greinke had great numbers with the Dodgers and I don't hear anybody discussing how much that home park helped. It's sort of the reverse argument of Rockies players and Coors Field.

As of now I'd still be a hard no on Votto. My take on the HOF is that, given that it's primary purpose is to be a museum of baseball history, it should be representative of each era. Each non-pitching position averages something like one HOF per 7 or 8 years. So that means, at any given time, there should be an average of one late-career and one early-career HOF at each position. Obviously they aren't going to line up that way perfectly. But Votto is clearly no better than 3rd-best of his exact contemporaries at first base (Pujols, Cabrera). I'm not saying I'd never support the 3rd-best guy who played a position a the same time. But he'd have to be a whole lot better than Votto.

Glad you see their are others agreeing with me on Votto. Good player in his career, but nothing that stands out that pushes him into the hall. He is sitting on less hits and far less homers than Mark Teixiera, not to mention Tex having 5 gold gloves to Votto's 1, and I think we all agree Tex isn't going in, right?

Posted by 06gsp on 5/9/2019 7:36:00 PM (view original):
Edgar Martinez had 2200 career hits and 309 home runs, yet everyone recognized he was great at hitting despite him not reaching any traditional milestones or winning any MVPs or playing in the World Series. he eventually got voted in, and it would have happened a lot sooner if he hadn't been a full time DH, which Votto is not.

It's 2019, man. Voters are not looking at the same things they looked at in 1990. Leading the league in on-base percentage seven times in ten years, and doing so while hitting for power, is nearly worthy of the Hall by itself.

Edgar Martinez is top 3 at his position all time. I think most agree that Martinez, Ortiz, and Thomas are the top DH's ever. Edgar Martinez is in because not only is he top 3 at his position, but also the impact that he had on that Mariners lineup. Ken Griffey, Jr. acknowledges that he got a lot of pitches to hit because of Edgar Martinez batting behind him. Votto hasn't had that kind of impact. Who cares if he's led the league in walks a bunch of times? All that walking hasn't translated into wins for his team. Having Edgar Martinez in their lineup meant the Mariners at least made the postseason a bunch of times, with several division titles, and set the record for most regular season wins in AL history.
It's not about this being 1990 lol. Hitting milestones, winning, and hardware do matter, and if you don't have those, you need to be a transcendent talent. Comparing Votto to Martinez is silly.

Posted by wylie715 on 5/10/2019 7:34:00 PM (view original):
that JV..thought he meant Joey Votto. my bad!

heh

Posted by rjk2781 on 5/11/2019 10:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by 06gsp on 5/9/2019 7:36:00 PM (view original):
Edgar Martinez had 2200 career hits and 309 home runs, yet everyone recognized he was great at hitting despite him not reaching any traditional milestones or winning any MVPs or playing in the World Series. he eventually got voted in, and it would have happened a lot sooner if he hadn't been a full time DH, which Votto is not.

It's 2019, man. Voters are not looking at the same things they looked at in 1990. Leading the league in on-base percentage seven times in ten years, and doing so while hitting for power, is nearly worthy of the Hall by itself.

Edgar Martinez is top 3 at his position all time. I think most agree that Martinez, Ortiz, and Thomas are the top DH's ever. Edgar Martinez is in because not only is he top 3 at his position, but also the impact that he had on that Mariners lineup. Ken Griffey, Jr. acknowledges that he got a lot of pitches to hit because of Edgar Martinez batting behind him. Votto hasn't had that kind of impact. Who cares if he's led the league in walks a bunch of times? All that walking hasn't translated into wins for his team. Having Edgar Martinez in their lineup meant the Mariners at least made the postseason a bunch of times, with several division titles, and set the record for most regular season wins in AL history.
It's not about this being 1990 lol. Hitting milestones, winning, and hardware do matter, and if you don't have those, you need to be a transcendent talent. Comparing Votto to Martinez is silly.

it's exactly about voters no longer putting nearly as much emphasis on the things you are emphasizing.

when Votto is up for the Hall of Fame in 10 years or so, there will be little to no voters thinking (quite frankly stupid) thoughts like "walking a lot doesn't matter if your team isn't winning".

someone else made a good point that Votto's career slash line will suffer as he get older, and if that happens and he falls below the career .300/.400/.500 milestone, his case will definitely take a bit of a hit. but if he does maintain that career slash line, you'd have to be nuts to argue against him. only 18 players in MLB history have ever done that. 14 of them are in the Hall of Fame. the four that aren't are Shoeless Joe Jackson (ineligible), Manny Ramirez (first ballot if clean), and Larry Walker and Todd Helton (Coors Field inflated, although both still have a chance despite that).

The case for Edgar Martinez hinged largely on his.300/.400/.500 statline, and the obvious fact that he was really good at hitting. it was not because the Mariners had good years due to the four other Hall of Famers who were on the team alongside him.

I always find it hilarious when people on the What If Sports forums of all places talk about how OBP doesn't matter. have you, like, ever actually played a game in the sim?

Edgar Martinez career averages per 162 games: .312/.418/.515, 96 runs, 41 doubles, 24 HRs, 99 RBIs, 101 BBs

Joey Votto career averages per 162 games: .308/.425/.525, 95 runs, 38 doubles, 27 HRs, 91 RBIs, 113 BBs

yep, totally silly to compare those two guys.

yeah but could votto handle the daunting defensive responsibilities of the key DH position like gar did

Watching the Cubs-Brewers game tonight A-Rod said a couple more good seasons out of Jon Lester and he's probably a HOFer. Broker two of the biggest curses in recorded history!