Posted by tangplay on 1/29/2019 11:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 1/29/2019 11:19:00 PM (view original):
A government bill doesn't change mindsets. Public pressure does. We see it all the time.

Remember, slavery is a poor example to use with me. The government had a responsibility to intervene as people were being physically harmed and their freedoms were being trampled on. The problem with using pressure from the citizens in the north to end slavery is that Northerners really didn't give a **** if southerners owned slaves.

Kale salad it is for us.

I believe that people in America should not be discriminated against, regardless of race, gender, religion, or preferences.

But I think you missed the point about slavery. Natural process is not always the best way to do things.

We both agree on this. I have all of this before. Our fundamental differences lie in the fact that you believe government is needed to solve problems. I want the government to stay the hell out of people's lives.

I understood your point. I stand by the fact that natural process is always better. Changing law doesn't change people's heart. To truly police the "isms", there must be a cultural mindset change. Anything compulsory from the government is counterproductive and only drives divisions further.

Posted by tangplay on 1/29/2019 11:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 1/29/2019 11:29:00 PM (view original):
I don't have a problem with not providing federal funding to "for profit" schools. I actually don't believe any private school should receive federal funding. We're $20T in debt, We can't afford it. As far as the debt to income ratio. I am anti-student loan as a rule anyways. They are unnecessary for people and are going to lead to the next recession. Obama made a big mistake with his government takeover of student loans. As to your specific point, the loans don't come from the colleges. The colleges aren't saddling kids with any debt. They put a price tag on their school and people make a choice on whether or not to attend.

The market does a really good job of dictating which schools have more money. Harvard is recognized as one of the better schools in the country, therefore it makes more money. The last school that I coached was not a very good school and almost had to close its doors. It has since hired a new president and is getting better quickly and guess what. Its financial situation is getting better quickly.

The issue is that for profit colleges hire experts at convincing low-income students to take out loans to afford to go to their school, and don't provide the best education or income after graduation.

I typed "for-profit colleges" into the google machine. Over half of the articles on the first page dealt with the shortcomings of these schools. If a person is too stupid to do that, they shouldn't be spending money on college anywhere. It's not the governments job to protect stupid people from themselves. There is too much information available.

Tang, I have tried to tell you this for two years now, but you treat the government like a god that can solve all problems. If this were the case, we would already have that utopia you dream of. You are going to reply and say that you don't do this, but over 90% of the solutions you have given to problems have involved the government.

Topic of Day: Removing offensive history

I will leave my argument broad in hopes to create some dialogue on this. Our country gets offended very easily. Their solution for this is to remove anything that may be marginally offensive. This is dangerous and creates a revisionist, fake history. We remove statues and we change names of schools. We remove anything that is offensive in the slightest. George Santayana said "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." This is very true.

We will use Woodrow Wilson as an example because he is equally hated by both sides. He was a racist progressive. If I change the name of Woodrow Wilson High School, I have lost a great and important opportunity. Say, for example, that I am driving through DC and my son sees the school and asks "Who is Woodrow Wilson?" Now, I have the opportunity to say he was a garbage person who hated black people and infringed on people's rights while he trampled on our constitution.

I agree 100%. Our country is too easily offended. No one is perfect. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves so do we diminish his name too? In general the easily offended basically infringe on people's free speech IMO.

Posted by strikeout26 on 1/30/2019 12:21:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 1/29/2019 11:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 1/29/2019 11:29:00 PM (view original):
I don't have a problem with not providing federal funding to "for profit" schools. I actually don't believe any private school should receive federal funding. We're $20T in debt, We can't afford it. As far as the debt to income ratio. I am anti-student loan as a rule anyways. They are unnecessary for people and are going to lead to the next recession. Obama made a big mistake with his government takeover of student loans. As to your specific point, the loans don't come from the colleges. The colleges aren't saddling kids with any debt. They put a price tag on their school and people make a choice on whether or not to attend.

The market does a really good job of dictating which schools have more money. Harvard is recognized as one of the better schools in the country, therefore it makes more money. The last school that I coached was not a very good school and almost had to close its doors. It has since hired a new president and is getting better quickly and guess what. Its financial situation is getting better quickly.

The issue is that for profit colleges hire experts at convincing low-income students to take out loans to afford to go to their school, and don't provide the best education or income after graduation.

I typed "for-profit colleges" into the google machine. Over half of the articles on the first page dealt with the shortcomings of these schools. If a person is too stupid to do that, they shouldn't be spending money on college anywhere. It's not the governments job to protect stupid people from themselves. There is too much information available.

Tang, I have tried to tell you this for two years now, but you treat the government like a god that can solve all problems. If this were the case, we would already have that utopia you dream of. You are going to reply and say that you don't do this, but over 90% of the solutions you have given to problems have involved the government.

I still stand by my belief that the government should intervene and not give funding to these schools.

Sure, I think the government is a fine problem solving mechanism.

I've already agreed with you that they shouldn't receive funding. I just took it a step further and said no private schools should receive federal aid.

That is a scary thought. Not because you think it necessarily, but because you're not in the minority in your thought among millenials. We are in for a dangerous future. History proves this.

Posted by strikeout26 on 1/30/2019 9:12:00 AM (view original):
Topic of Day: Removing offensive history

I will leave my argument broad in hopes to create some dialogue on this. Our country gets offended very easily. Their solution for this is to remove anything that may be marginally offensive. This is dangerous and creates a revisionist, fake history. We remove statues and we change names of schools. We remove anything that is offensive in the slightest. George Santayana said "Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it." This is very true.

We will use Woodrow Wilson as an example because he is equally hated by both sides. He was a racist progressive. If I change the name of Woodrow Wilson High School, I have lost a great and important opportunity. Say, for example, that I am driving through DC and my son sees the school and asks "Who is Woodrow Wilson?" Now, I have the opportunity to say he was a garbage person who hated black people and infringed on people's rights while he trampled on our constitution.

Monuments and school names are NOT the way we remember history. It's the way we glorify history. We remember history in graveyards, museums, and history books. Confederate monuments should be taken down or put in museums or graveyards. I am all for teaching of history, and I believe history is under taught in schools. I don't think the government's responsibility to handle this. Put it in the hands of the local communities.

If you believe that Woodrow Wilson is so bad, fight to take him off of your school name.

Where is the line drawn as to what is removed because it's "offensive"? Who draws the line?

Why should they change the name of the high school? Some people felt he was a great president. Some people would argue he was one of the best in our country's short history. Why should my feelings trump theirs? Who gets to be the great arbitrator of feelings?

Posted by cccp1014 on 1/30/2019 10:18:00 AM (view original):
I agree 100%. Our country is too easily offended. No one is perfect. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves so do we diminish his name too? In general the easily offended basically infringe on people's free speech IMO.

I would get offended if I had to drive by a statue glorifying a racist who owned my ancestors that was built by racists every day, too.

Thomas Jefferson is not equatable, he was a US President who did a lot of good, including fighting against slavery.

Posted by strikeout26 on 1/30/2019 10:44:00 AM (view original):
Where is the line drawn as to what is removed because it's "offensive"? Who draws the line?

Why should they change the name of the high school? Some people felt he was a great president. Some people would argue he was one of the best in our country's short history. Why should my feelings trump theirs? Who gets to be the great arbitrator of feelings?

The line is drawn SOMEWHERE. I don't know. We can all (hopefully agree) that some people deserve statues, and some don't. It's pretty obvious that the Nazi party should not be able to build a statue of Adolf Hitler in Germany and claim that it is part of history.

Put it on a local ballot maybe?

History is history, just as facts are facts. People who think they can change either by manipulating what parts they want others to hear about and/or believe are doing nothing but making themselves look ignorant.

HTH do you celebrate those who ended racism and the like if you don't even mention those who supported it? Doesn't that cheapen the acts of those who gave their lives fighting the cause?

I have to completely agree with all3 on this. You can't wipe away history.

Censorship of memories isn't the answer.

Education is.

Posted by all3 on 1/30/2019 10:57:00 AM (view original):
History is history, just as facts are facts. People who think they can change either by manipulating what parts they want others to hear about and/or believe are doing nothing but making themselves look ignorant.

HTH do you celebrate those who ended racism and the like if you don't even mention those who supported it? Doesn't that cheapen the acts of those who gave their lives fighting the cause?

What are you talking about? No one is arguing to remove any mention of racists anywhere? Again, monuments are NOT how we remember history, it's how we celebrate and glorify history. If you want, mention the south in Harriet Tubman's monument.

Posted by rsp777 on 1/30/2019 11:03:00 AM (view original):
I have to completely agree with all3 on this. You can't wipe away history.

Censorship of memories isn't the answer.

Education is.

Exactly. I would love for the monuments to go to graveyards or museums or to be looked at more in history books. That's where history goes.

Posted by tangplay on 1/30/2019 10:45:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 1/30/2019 10:18:00 AM (view original):
I agree 100%. Our country is too easily offended. No one is perfect. Thomas Jefferson owned slaves so do we diminish his name too? In general the easily offended basically infringe on people's free speech IMO.

I would get offended if I had to drive by a statue glorifying a racist who owned my ancestors that was built by racists every day, too.

Thomas Jefferson is not equatable, he was a US President who did a lot of good, including fighting against slavery.

Subjective. Some may not feel the same way you do about TJ. You start removing Wilson and you go down a slippery slope IMO.