So I don't know Tangy. I DID say make the slogan regionally and age appropriate. IF I remember right (me being so old and all.........) that particular slogan ("Wrap That Rascal") was used with fair success up in Wyoming several years ago.......... to the eternal gratefulness of every sheep in the State.

Posted by wylie715 on 5/30/2018 12:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 8:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 5/29/2018 6:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/29/2018 2:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by laramiebob on 5/29/2018 2:47:00 PM (view original):
Boris, your premise is flawed........ you don't DECIDE to become a single Mom........... You decide to fornicate unwisely and end up alone and without a male partner. THAT occurs for a whole shitload of reasons..... from deadbeat maledom to crazy females who can't "nest",-------- among others..........

You have made my point. We need to address this first and foremost not race relations. Single parenthood is slowly killing this country.

you may be right, but I don't see how that can be fixed? Do e make it illegal to have sex if you are not married? Who has to enforce that law....and how would they know? You keep bringing up single parent households as being the major part of the problem. I'm not sure I agree with that. That's neither here nor there. I don't see any way to fix it. Sex education in schools doesn't do it. I think we both agree there's no way you're going to stop people from having sex, whether they are married or not. So, how do we do it? How about a suggestion for fixing it instead of just saying it needs to be fixed.

I'd spend $10bn on education starting in middle school. Maybe provide incentives to kids who graduate HS and don't have a kid by giving them $5k per year for college. Now it won't pay for a lot but it will pay for some state schooling community college. Again my kids are in middle school and NO ONE is talking to them about the dangers of single parenthood.

That is how I would attack it. Similar to the "Just Say No" campaign vs. drugs in the 80s. I'd do the same thing for single motherhood now. I would also make welfare programs a lot less attractive. Rather than giving welfare stamps, that they sell for other sh*t, I'd deliver actual food. This way they have to eat what I provide vs. what they want to eat. So they won't go hungry but they won't get to choose necessarily what they like.

This is what I would do wylie.

Okay. How did the Just Say No to Drugs thing work out? Not very well, I'd say. Yes, it can't hurt to try any of these suggestion, may even help a little. But ity won't make much of a dent in the problem.

I think the program worked. I definitely stayed away as did many of my friends. Thanks, Nancy Reagan.

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2018 1:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 5/30/2018 12:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/30/2018 11:23:00 AM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 5/30/2018 11:19:00 AM (view original):
Could it possibly be that the difference in average earnings between the two races have to do with the number of people that have college degrees? Don't let logic get in the way, B_L. I've already proven to you that the wage gap narrows drastically when comparing blacks and whites with college degrees. Remember, black women with degrees actually make more than white women with degrees. Once again, I would hate for logic to get in the way for you.

Hmmm I wonder if racism could play a role in someone's access to college?

That depends on the school. Do you want me to list the racist institutions again? You see, some of the problem is that the same white people championing the idea of racism are the racists themselves.

I would argue that it is much more likely that the people saying that they don't see race are the racists over the people acknowledging that racism exists and that it is a problem.

I 100% disagree with that statement. Opinions vary.

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2018 12:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 8:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 5/29/2018 6:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/29/2018 2:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by laramiebob on 5/29/2018 2:47:00 PM (view original):
Boris, your premise is flawed........ you don't DECIDE to become a single Mom........... You decide to fornicate unwisely and end up alone and without a male partner. THAT occurs for a whole shitload of reasons..... from deadbeat maledom to crazy females who can't "nest",-------- among others..........

You have made my point. We need to address this first and foremost not race relations. Single parenthood is slowly killing this country.

you may be right, but I don't see how that can be fixed? Do e make it illegal to have sex if you are not married? Who has to enforce that law....and how would they know? You keep bringing up single parent households as being the major part of the problem. I'm not sure I agree with that. That's neither here nor there. I don't see any way to fix it. Sex education in schools doesn't do it. I think we both agree there's no way you're going to stop people from having sex, whether they are married or not. So, how do we do it? How about a suggestion for fixing it instead of just saying it needs to be fixed.

I'd spend $10bn on education starting in middle school. Maybe provide incentives to kids who graduate HS and don't have a kid by giving them $5k per year for college. Now it won't pay for a lot but it will pay for some state schooling community college. Again my kids are in middle school and NO ONE is talking to them about the dangers of single parenthood.

That is how I would attack it. Similar to the "Just Say No" campaign vs. drugs in the 80s. I'd do the same thing for single motherhood now. I would also make welfare programs a lot less attractive. Rather than giving welfare stamps, that they sell for other sh*t, I'd deliver actual food. This way they have to eat what I provide vs. what they want to eat. So they won't go hungry but they won't get to choose necessarily what they like.

This is what I would do wylie.

Do you have any proof that this program would work? 10bn isn't a ton of money, but it is enough on one program to need to have accountability and we need to know that it would work.

How would I have proof when this is a hypothetical? And you ask why I insult you? Geez.

Did they have proof that "Just say No" would work? I think it is worth a shot. Your solution is to cry racism aka white guilt.

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2018 1:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 5/30/2018 12:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/30/2018 11:23:00 AM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 5/30/2018 11:19:00 AM (view original):
Could it possibly be that the difference in average earnings between the two races have to do with the number of people that have college degrees? Don't let logic get in the way, B_L. I've already proven to you that the wage gap narrows drastically when comparing blacks and whites with college degrees. Remember, black women with degrees actually make more than white women with degrees. Once again, I would hate for logic to get in the way for you.

Hmmm I wonder if racism could play a role in someone's access to college?

That depends on the school. Do you want me to list the racist institutions again? You see, some of the problem is that the same white people championing the idea of racism are the racists themselves.

I would argue that it is much more likely that the people saying that they don't see race are the racists over the people acknowledging that racism exists and that it is a problem.

You could argue that if you wish. If you want to believe that the elite in this country want things to change, go right ahead. IMHO, you are a fool (I mean that kindly.) You see, they are all for change...as long as it doesn't impact their own school, neighborhood or lifestyle. They want the rest of us to fight amongst ourselves while they sit comfortably above it all, like modern day Titans.

It didn't take for Mr. Miami to realize that tangy is a "fool".

I did say it in a kindly fashion. His position on this is just a tad naïve.

Just a tad...LOL.

What is funny is that when you disagree they label you ignorant and racist. Can't make this stuff up.

Posted by bad_luck on 5/30/2018 11:45:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 11:41:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/30/2018 11:35:00 AM (view original):
And this is without even talking about the justice system, which is the easiest way to prove institutional racism.

This belief assumes that blacks do not commit crimes any more frequently than whites. But if black men make up almost 50% of the prison population, they committed roughly 42% of violent crimes in the 1990s, and many studies have shown that, when severity of crime and past record are taken into account, there is no bias against blacks in the criminal justice system. At its inception, the War on Drugs, often interpreted as a “War on Blacks,” had the strong support of the Congressional Black Caucus, whose members aimed to stem inner-city violence. If these black officials, who at the time exhorted Congress to “save our communities,” were racists, then the definition of this term is beyond my comprehension.

Also to halt all profiling would increase the number of blacks murdered, mostly by other blacks. And black leaders would cite this rise as further evidence of racism, as happened in New York in the 1980s, when cops turned a blind eye to a wave of black crime. Many of those crying racism about today’s New York City policing were sounding the same call about the Dinkins administration’s lax policing.

Blacks receive longer prison sentences for the same crimes when prior record is controlled for.

That is just not true. Above was taken from the U of Columbia. Are you saying they are lying?

Posted by gomiami1972 on 5/30/2018 1:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2018 1:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 5/30/2018 12:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/30/2018 11:23:00 AM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 5/30/2018 11:19:00 AM (view original):
Could it possibly be that the difference in average earnings between the two races have to do with the number of people that have college degrees? Don't let logic get in the way, B_L. I've already proven to you that the wage gap narrows drastically when comparing blacks and whites with college degrees. Remember, black women with degrees actually make more than white women with degrees. Once again, I would hate for logic to get in the way for you.

Hmmm I wonder if racism could play a role in someone's access to college?

That depends on the school. Do you want me to list the racist institutions again? You see, some of the problem is that the same white people championing the idea of racism are the racists themselves.

I would argue that it is much more likely that the people saying that they don't see race are the racists over the people acknowledging that racism exists and that it is a problem.

You could argue that if you wish. If you want to believe that the elite in this country want things to change, go right ahead. IMHO, you are a fool (I mean that kindly.) You see, they are all for change...as long as it doesn't impact their own school, neighborhood or lifestyle. They want the rest of us to fight amongst ourselves while they sit comfortably above it all, like modern day Titans.

THIS. I completely agree that MOST of the "elite" can be characterized that way. There ARE exceptions, of course.

My eldest daughter's Master's Thesis was on "Access to Institutes Of Higher Learning"

ONE of the biggest impediments was to Rural children and rural schools..........Far less access to College because they receive FAR less economic support. Fewer scholarships, less admission rates, etc. In Arizona, rural areas are USUALLY much less wealthy than most of the inhabitants of our cities. Meaning that indeed MONEY/Poverty directly affects children's access to the "conventional" way out...... or to the American myth of upward mobility..........which DOES happen but mostly (statistically) is a giant myth.

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2018 1:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by laramiebob on 5/30/2018 12:53:00 PM (view original):
Tangy. Let it go. The FACT that Boris wants to consciously claim that blacks don't STILL suffer/face institutional racism is HIS willful ignorance and HE has the right to choose to (sort of) bury his head to it. And, he is right, things are improving in MANY areas and regions of the Country.

But, you are right within your knowledge and certainty about the sad but continuing presence of racism's subtle practice......... in MANY areas of society.
Access to schooling is a big one (also affected by poverty as Boris points out)
But, also, in areas such as access to credit. Or higher car loan rates based on color which has just been publicly aired and re-printed in newspapers around the Country.
Or redlining, yes it's illegal, but is still subtly persists in many metro areas!
There are many other ways of subtle institutional RACISM that ANY black person could tell Boris about IF he would listen.........just (apparently) not the two guys he knows.
:-)

You are right, bob. I am really close to just dropping the issue if he makes one more statement about what I believe that I already had stated is false about 50 times.

Why can't we peacefully disagree?

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2018 12:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 8:34:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/29/2018 9:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by all3 on 5/29/2018 9:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 5/29/2018 6:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/29/2018 5:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by all3 on 5/29/2018 3:29:00 PM (view original):
Why are we just discussing racism against blacks? What about the racism of blacks? No idea where to look for the numbers, but I'd bet the % of blacks who are racist is much higher than the % of whites. I'd also bet the % of racist whites has decreased much more over the last couple decades than the % of racist blacks. It's kind of hard for any race to say "Yeah, I'm cool with them.", when you have some of them screaming "I hate your black/white guts." in your face. Shouldn't addressing the racism of blacks be part of the discussion on how to make the problem better (it will never be eliminated)?

I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion. Unless you can name an institutionally racist practice against white people this is a big fat nothingburger.

also, if you and your ancestors had been discriminated against for 250 years, wouldn't you be a little antagonistic against the people doing the discriminating?

Is it understandable? Yes.
Does that make it right or less detrimental? No.
You don't think white racism would decrease if nothing changed except black racism?

Not addressing the broken record named tang. institutional racism this, institutional racism that. He uses that "rationale" (excuse) so much he needs a key on his keyboard to type it all at once to avoid carpal tunnel.

Institutional racism isn't an excuse. No need for hyperbole here.

Tangplay here is where we differ.

Your definition of institutional racism:

100% due to the judicial system. You also believe because we were racists in the 40s it still impacts blacks now.

Mine is:

If KFC openly states we won't hire blacks. No institution does that.

Since you are dumb. I will give you this analogy. Say as a child I had a bad experience on a roller coaster and threw up after. I now won't allow my kids on roller coasters even though the one I threw up on has been long gone and my kids may have better constitution than me. To you that roller coaster is still causing my kids trauma because of what happened to me they are paying the price. To me its just me being an overprotective parent.

BTW - I love roller coasters and never threw up on one.

My point is the past is in the past and while it may influence future events it is not to be held against the current generation. Otherwise we should still be punishing Germany for the Nazis.

So our operational definition of institutional racism differs hence our debate goes nowhere and we end up going in circles.

Do you understand this? Y or N?

I agree with this statement. And I understand that you and I have differing definitions. That's why I wanted to clarify this long ago. So let me make my positions clear.

Here is an example, since I can't come up with an analogy.

Black person accused of a crime and convicted, despite being innocent, because the judge and police assumed (based on stereotypes) that black people commit most crimes and are troublemakers. While those people may not have been racist, we all have bias and we all stereotype. This happens a lot, and at a far greater rate than with white people. That is institutional racism.

Another example:
Black family tries to move into a good part of town in the 70's. They are denied because of redlining. That family moves into a bad part of town with tons of drugs (that may or may not have been promoted by the feds), bad schools, and lesser opportunities. That family is now at a disadvantage vs a family that was let into a better part of town. It is now MORE LIKELY that people in that family do drugs, don't graduate HS, have bad influences, etc. While these are all choices, it is still a disadvantage. That is institutional racism.

It is a little more cut and dry than a company just outright not hiring black people. More bias nowadays than outright racism. The roller coaster isn't a great analogy because the things being compared are not really equal.

It isn't 'punishing' anyone. What do you think happens if we as a society admit that institutional racism exists? We don't 'punish' white people. I don't have white guilt. We fix the problems by equalizing opportunity. We already agreed on 8/9 proposals I gave. If Jews still hadn't recovered from the Holocaust, we don't punish the Nazis further, we help the Jews. Seems simple enough.

Do you understand this? Y or N?

If you don't, just ask me questions instead of making accusations over things I didn't say.

I understand where you are coming from and 100% disagree with you.

Posted by gomiami1972 on 5/30/2018 1:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2018 1:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gomiami1972 on 5/30/2018 12:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/30/2018 11:23:00 AM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 5/30/2018 11:19:00 AM (view original):
Could it possibly be that the difference in average earnings between the two races have to do with the number of people that have college degrees? Don't let logic get in the way, B_L. I've already proven to you that the wage gap narrows drastically when comparing blacks and whites with college degrees. Remember, black women with degrees actually make more than white women with degrees. Once again, I would hate for logic to get in the way for you.

Hmmm I wonder if racism could play a role in someone's access to college?

That depends on the school. Do you want me to list the racist institutions again? You see, some of the problem is that the same white people championing the idea of racism are the racists themselves.

I would argue that it is much more likely that the people saying that they don't see race are the racists over the people acknowledging that racism exists and that it is a problem.

You could argue that if you wish. If you want to believe that the elite in this country want things to change, go right ahead. IMHO, you are a fool (I mean that kindly.) You see, they are all for change...as long as it doesn't impact their own school, neighborhood or lifestyle. They want the rest of us to fight amongst ourselves while they sit comfortably above it all, like modern day Titans.

Substitute "white person" in for "elite" and seeing people around here claiming that racism doesn't put blacks at a disadvantage starts to make sense.

Posted by laramiebob on 5/30/2018 1:13:00 PM (view original):
So I don't know Tangy. I DID say make the slogan regionally and age appropriate. IF I remember right (me being so old and all.........) that particular slogan ("Wrap That Rascal") was used with fair success up in Wyoming several years ago.......... to the eternal gratefulness of every sheep in the State.

IDK, I hadn't heard about that. You may be right.

From John H. McWhorter:

Yet during the decade I came to realize that this feeling made me odd man out among most black Americans. In every race-related debate—whether over Rodney King, O. J. Simpson, the Million Man March, Ebonics, or affirmative action—almost every black person I knew, many with backgrounds as comfortable as my own, started from the fierce conviction that, decades after the Civil Rights Act, whitey’s foot remains pressed upon all black Americans’ necks. For most black Americans, the rapid increase of the black middle class, of interracial relationships and marriages, and of blacks in prestigious positions has no bearing on the real state of black America. Further, they believe, whites’ inability to grasp the unmistakable reality of oppression is itself proof of racism, while blacks who question that reality are self-deluded.

He is black...so I'll take his word over yours, Captain 99% tax.


https://www.city-journal.org/html/what%E2%80%99s-holding-blacks-back-12025.html