I don't know how many people are still around who were seasoned vets when I first found my way to WIS. Anybody remember when...

• Open league rookies were so terrible they didn't really figure into team-building strategy?
• Guys like Gerald Govan, Mel Hutchins, Ron Boone, and Dale Ellis showed up in every open league?
• Defense and shooting efficiency didn't seem to count for that much?
• uvasooner and qistat won most of the especially challenging theme leagues? (And dman, whenver he dropped by.)

The first three items help me remember how much the sim has improved in the last several years. Yes, maintenance, updates, and customer service are all issues, but the game itself is much, much better thanks to the advanced stats and a couple big rounds of user-driven changes.

"improved" = more subject to the vagaries of randomization
"user driven changes" = last update 2010

Posted by copernicus on 2/26/2018 2:32:00 PM (view original):
"improved" = more subject to the vagaries of randomization
"user driven changes" = last update 2010

Amen to both those notes.

The owners brad mentions were quite the handful though.

Of course, Theme Leagues filled in days then, and the constant updates kept things fresh and interesting.

-When Bill Russell was actually a really good guy to have (sometimes even multiple seasons on the same team)...

-Nash /Ray /Peja /Rodman /Moses were literally unbeatable

Admin actually posted in the forums!!!!

Posted by pointfwd on 2/26/2018 6:00:00 PM (view original):
-When Bill Russell was actually a really good guy to have (sometimes even multiple seasons on the same team)...

-Nash /Ray /Peja /Rodman /Moses were literally unbeatable

Admin actually posted in the forums!!!!

Yep, I remember that cookie cutter quite well. Again, defense didn't seem to count for enough at that cap level. Some of us advocated hard for the impact of D to be enhanced, and got it in the next big upgrade to the sim. But counterintuitively, Russell got nerfed significantly. Thurmond, too.

Posted by copernicus on 2/26/2018 2:32:00 PM (view original):
"improved" = more subject to the vagaries of randomization
"user driven changes" = last update 2010

I take both points, but I still much prefer this version of the sim. The advanced stats were a significant improvement. Also the elevated valuation of defense and rebounding. (Rodman used to be dirt cheap.)

Valuation changes really helped though. Those cookie cutter guys were dirt cheap. I agree Brad that salary is set pretty well now. It was a battle with a lot of user input. At least they listened and took action. That was around 2010 I think?

I just remember all 90+ defensive teams getting trounced by those guys. That doesnt really happen now as much.

If they would only do another round of tweaks regarding the dreaded variance-that sees massive differences in free throwns for example-the sim would really be enjoyable.

Still guys like ash, copernicus, ben, milest brad among others win consistently. So there is a right way to do this thing even if it doesnt jibe with reality. Sad that no one listens and it will die before it changes.

One of the few things I miss about the way the sim used to work is that golden oldies were actually valuable. Russell was a studly mainstay and Thurmond, Havlicek and DeBusschere were actually playable. It's mostly to the site's credit that shooting efficiency somehow seems to count for a lot more now...unless the sea change has been that we all just got smarter about drafting.

Posted by pointfwd on 2/28/2018 9:59:00 PM (view original):
Valuation changes really helped though. Those cookie cutter guys were dirt cheap. I agree Brad that salary is set pretty well now. It was a battle with a lot of user input. At least they listened and took action. That was around 2010 I think?

I just remember all 90+ defensive teams getting trounced by those guys. That doesnt really happen now as much.

Yeah, offense was too cheap in those days. Peja was the gold standard, but I also saw a ton of Glen Rice and Dale Ellis.

But it was around the same time or maybe just a little earlier that someone (can't remember who) won six open leagues in a row with a starting five of Russell, Thurmond, Pippen, Moncrief, and Kidd. These days that lineup wouldn't have enough usage or offensive balance (or efficiency) to compete, but it was unstoppable for a while.

I remember most of that. The Russ/Thurmond/Pippen/Moncrief/Kidd days were before my time, though.

And Nash/Allen/Peja/Rodman/Moses was TOTALLY beatable. It was just easy.

I haven't played open leagues in several years, ever since they made rookies much more usable. Is there anything like a cookie cutter lineup now?

Posted by longtallbrad on 7/26/2018 8:37:00 PM (view original):
I haven't played open leagues in several years, ever since they made rookies much more usable. Is there anything like a cookie cutter lineup now?

LeBron/Curry/Rodman/Rodman plus a bunch of partials.

Posted by longtallbrad on 7/26/2018 8:37:00 PM (view original):
I haven't played open leagues in several years, ever since they made rookies much more usable. Is there anything like a cookie cutter lineup now?

Sort of.

There are three really dominant teams that I've seen over the past couple of years, but the copycatting isn't near as bad as it used to be:

cp3 (version has changed over the years; currently double cp3, 16-17 + 09-10)
double steph (changed from 14-15 to 15-16... + 11-12)
triple worms (92-93, 96-97, 98-99)
double Shaq (either 01-02 or 04-05 + 06-07)

I've run this same team now for 4 or 5 years now with slight variations (used to use 96-97 Jordan before the 14-15 Steph season came along, and it was more of a possession control team than efg% monster). This is probably the third best overall OL setup out there currently.

The second best is probably the state farm concept:
Double stockton (I like 94-95 & 87-88), magic (83-84), Lebron (12-13), Boerwinkle (his 1175 min season) with Noah's 14-15 season to flesh out the rotation. There are some variances on the Stocktons, the Magic & even the Lebron. Sometimes you'll see Jalen Rose's 30% ast% in the mix. jlg came up with the concept originally; smackdown, sephy & myself have probably ran it the most, but there have been a **** ton of copycats... My 78-4 team that's in the records section was this lineup, and that one in particular got copied over & over & over.

The best is a lineup most ran by Ben. When the 14-15 players came out, my first team was the one from above using cp3 + steph & Shaq. I had another version that was based around steph + lebron in my team center, which I was going to run next, but lo & behold, in that first league, Ben had the exact team I had built in my team center. I think I went on to win it - don't quote me on that, I might not have - but when the 15-16 Steph came out, it was over; Ben's won probably 20 or 30 championships with that lineup (I've won a couple as well, I just don't run it near as often because I don't really feel I can do anything new with it):

double steph (15-16, 11-12)
Lebron (12-13) with Durant (14-15) backing up
triple worm (same as before)
The center is the only thing that really can be tweaked, as the other four positions are pretty much the best combination of everything possible in the sim currently. I know he's ran varying combos of Whiteside, Walton, Mutombo, and others here. It's usually a guy with high boards, good defense, medium usage (tier 4 or high tier 5), and high efg%. You'll need to talk to him to find out what he has had the most luck with. I've used the recent Dwight Howard seasons here to great success, and did it with 88-89 worm instead of 92-93, but honestly...

As I said, there's pretty much no better combination at the 1-4 than 7 player seasons. The 17-18 players may change that - I have been dying to get ahold of them in particular - but they may not. At best, it may change one or two players in another concept to make it a little more competitive. Unless someone can just come up with something mind blowing, there's no better combination of shooting efficiency, defense, and rebounds than those I just mentioned.

I'd like to actually run a test league with 8 of each of those teams and see what happened, but I'll be damned if I'm spending $240 on it. Rookies also have a lot to do with it.