Posted by strikeout26 on 11/11/2017 11:13:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 11/11/2017 11:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 11/11/2017 11:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 11/11/2017 10:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 11/11/2017 10:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 11/11/2017 10:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 11/11/2017 8:32:00 PM (view original):
I'll send you some civil war history books as a Christmas present.

Sure. I’m pretty sure even those books will include the section where Lee was a confederate general.

Most certainly and I'm not advocating for the guy. He was a major part of the loss of thousands upon thousands of American lives. I have no issue with his statues being removed. If you don't like it, don't lose the war. There are just a lot of fallacies being spread about him that need to be addressed.

You’re arguing he’s misunderstood. I’m saying it doesn’t matter. His personal feelings about slavery became irrelevant when he chose to lead a side fighting to preserve slavery.

The war had little to do with slavery. This is a case of "winners write the history books" which I'm okay with to an extent. It's a privilege of winning. The north wasn't even necessarily fighting to end slavery. This was just an awesome by-product.

The war was about slavery.

We have the secession documents.

Yes, which include reasons such as economic exploitation, role of military, states rights, slavery, and more.

I'm not sure that most confederate soldiers knew exactly why they were fighting. The motivations have been argued since the onset of the war.

Look, what you are saying may be right, but it ignores major issues and could, in theory, perpetuate dangerous falsehoods. Portraying the confederacy as anything but traitors to the union is a dangerous game.

also, my view:
South: Seceded because of slavery. Yes, there were other issues, but without slavery, they don't secede.
Lincoln: Wanted to keep the union together. The Emancipation Proclamation was really just symbolism.
Confederate Soldiers and Generals: Traitors to the Union who fought for a society in which they would be allowed to own people.

Jesus christ, read the articles of secession.

Posted by tangplay on 11/11/2017 11:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 11/11/2017 9:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 11/11/2017 9:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 11/11/2017 8:07:00 PM (view original):
Just a side note, R. E. Lee opposed slavery. They forget to teach that in history classes.

Yet he fought on a side that supported it.

Yes, but his character was very well respected by both sides. He was thought of as a great man by the union as well. He didn't fight for slavery. He fought for Virginia. Twisted history bothers me. A large percentage of the confederacy was NOT fighting for slavery.

So, to clarify, are you arguing that confederate soldiers and generals should be glorified?

Not at all. Could you imagine the disaster had the south won.

Opinion poll: Is anyone who is a resident of a state who attempts to secede a traitor?

No

If they fought to secede, yes.

Posted by The Taint on 11/11/2017 11:22:00 PM (view original):
Jesus christ, read the articles of secession.

This. The southern states weren’t shy. They seceded because they worried Lincoln would end slavery.

Posted by strikeout26 on 11/11/2017 11:28:00 PM (view original):
Opinion poll: Is anyone who is a resident of a state who attempts to secede a traitor?

You’re certainly a traitor if you accept the position as general of the army fighting against the US.

Posted by bad_luck on 11/11/2017 11:32:00 PM (view original):

Posted by The Taint on 11/11/2017 11:22:00 PM (view original):
Jesus christ, read the articles of secession.

This. The southern states weren’t shy. They seceded because they worried Lincoln would end slavery.

Abraham Lincoln: "If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that."

Full transcript from Lincoln:

The sooner the national authority can be restored; the nearer the Union will be "the Union as it was." If there be those who would not save the Union, unless they could at the same time save slavery, I do not agree with them. If there be those who would not save the Union unless they could at the same time destroy slavery, I do not agree with them. My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave I would do it, and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing some and leaving others alone I would also do that. What I do about slavery, and the colored race, I do because I believe it helps to save the Union; and what I forbear, I forbear because I do not believe it would help to save the Union. I shall do less whenever I shall believe what I am doing hurts the cause, and I shall do more whenever I shall believe doing more will help the cause. I shall try to correct errors when shown to be errors; and I shall adopt new views so fast as they shall appear to be true views.

I have here stated my purpose according to my view of official duty; and I intend no modification of my oft-expressed personal wish that all men every where could be free

Lincoln was fighting to save the union. Slavery was secondary.

Again, how many Confederate soldiers owned slaves, less than 1%... Yet they were fighting and dying to keep slavery?

Don’t care. The south seceded to maintain slavery.

How many confederate soldiers thought blacks were sub-human?

How many soldiers today have any stake in oil rights?

That's dumb even for you.