Why play a friggin Dime D?? Topic

Gave up over 500 yards passing using a dime against a pro set offense.....pretty equal talent on both sides. Whats the friggin point of using a passing D when you cant stop the pass with it??
7/12/2017 4:16 PM
Dime is not a good match-up against Pro-Set.
7/12/2017 4:20 PM
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Posted by bagchucker on 7/12/2017 7:34:00 PM (view original):
that's helpful
Lmao...
7/12/2017 8:53 PM
Some people like this engine because it gives more control. However, this engine has its flaws and, assuming that was a pass only Pro Set, this is one of the flaws, IMO. The last engine had flaws also. Now we have flaws...just different ones.
7/12/2017 9:54 PM
when was the last change

how many months or years
7/12/2017 10:16 PM
Just took a quick look at your game in hopes I could provide some help, but damn, too much to know where to start. But I'll give it a good 'ole college try:

You used the Dime Formation, which should give you an advantage to stopping the pass. However, some quick thoughts:
  • Completion % - His QB's only had a 45% completion percentage. So your defense was pretty effective at disrupting passes.
  • Yards/Completion - He averaged 13.7 yds/completion. That's not all that unusual for a high quality passing attack, so nothing all that out of the ordinary here.
Digging a little deeper:
  • Form IQ - His offensive Form IQ was on average 19.4 pts higher than your defense's. In fact, on 34.7% of the plays, your defense was at a 20+ Form IQ disadvantage. That's a significant difference, putting your defense at a significant disadvantage.
  • Blitzing - You brought the house regularly. By my count, you blitzed either your LB or SS on 83% of the pass plays. While that contributed greatly to the Completion % and you were able to grab 6 sacks, that left the middle of your defense highly exposed. You can see this by the fact that his RB's and TE's combined for an average of 15 yds/comp, whereas, his WR's averaged only 12 yds/comp.
  • Defensive Coverages - His QB attempted to throw Long on 9.3% of his passes. You were in PsL coverage on 43.5%. He threw Medium 86.7%, while you were in PsM coverage on 45.9%.
?Why do I highlight these stats you may ask?! Well, combined, you have a defense with low Form IQ, dropping into Long Coverage and blitzing from the middle. If he was smart, he would have stopped throwing to the WR's and just ate you alive all day in the middle. I would have roasted you for closer to 800 yards given the circumstances.
7/12/2017 10:43 PM
Posted by harriswb3 on 7/12/2017 9:54:00 PM (view original):
Some people like this engine because it gives more control. However, this engine has its flaws and, assuming that was a pass only Pro Set, this is one of the flaws, IMO. The last engine had flaws also. Now we have flaws...just different ones.
This engine does give you far more control/flexibility than the past. While the Pass-Only ProSet can be effective, I've seen people win Championships running Pass-Only offenses from each of the I-Form, Trips, Shotgun and NDBox formations. I've also seen people win Championships deploying a more balanced attack (I know because I've done it more than a few times). I don't think the flaws are as pronounced, when it relates to running a certain formation or offensive type, as you indicate. I've seen these same offenses absolutely shutdown in Championships.

I'm not saying there aren't flaws, but, I think too many people around here inappropriately perpetrate that propaganda. It's become a crutch for many that aren't willing to figure out how to beat any certain scheme. Much like real life, those that put in the effort will reap the rewards.

Back to the game he complained about... His defense could have performed significantly better if he evaluated its shortcomings and put it in a position to better stop the passing attack. I'm not trying to throw darts, or be overly critical/rude, at all. Just stating facts.
7/12/2017 10:52 PM
Remember when I posted that I pay particular attention to certain posts from coaches. If you want to learn something, print OP's analysis of that defense and put it by your computer.

nitros

7/12/2017 10:55 PM
Posted by bjschumacher on 7/12/2017 4:20:00 PM (view original):
Dime is not a good match-up against Pro-Set.
I assume that is a GD thing ? Definitely not a football thing.
7/13/2017 3:01 AM
Posted by orangepace on 7/12/2017 10:43:00 PM (view original):
Just took a quick look at your game in hopes I could provide some help, but damn, too much to know where to start. But I'll give it a good 'ole college try:

You used the Dime Formation, which should give you an advantage to stopping the pass. However, some quick thoughts:
  • Completion % - His QB's only had a 45% completion percentage. So your defense was pretty effective at disrupting passes.
  • Yards/Completion - He averaged 13.7 yds/completion. That's not all that unusual for a high quality passing attack, so nothing all that out of the ordinary here.
Digging a little deeper:
  • Form IQ - His offensive Form IQ was on average 19.4 pts higher than your defense's. In fact, on 34.7% of the plays, your defense was at a 20+ Form IQ disadvantage. That's a significant difference, putting your defense at a significant disadvantage.
  • Blitzing - You brought the house regularly. By my count, you blitzed either your LB or SS on 83% of the pass plays. While that contributed greatly to the Completion % and you were able to grab 6 sacks, that left the middle of your defense highly exposed. You can see this by the fact that his RB's and TE's combined for an average of 15 yds/comp, whereas, his WR's averaged only 12 yds/comp.
  • Defensive Coverages - His QB attempted to throw Long on 9.3% of his passes. You were in PsL coverage on 43.5%. He threw Medium 86.7%, while you were in PsM coverage on 45.9%.
?Why do I highlight these stats you may ask?! Well, combined, you have a defense with low Form IQ, dropping into Long Coverage and blitzing from the middle. If he was smart, he would have stopped throwing to the WR's and just ate you alive all day in the middle. I would have roasted you for closer to 800 yards given the circumstances.
Wow, that's much more than "a good 'ole college try." That's an eye-opener! That's amazing from just one game.
7/13/2017 12:03 PM
Posted by orangepace on 7/12/2017 10:43:00 PM (view original):
Just took a quick look at your game in hopes I could provide some help, but damn, too much to know where to start. But I'll give it a good 'ole college try:

You used the Dime Formation, which should give you an advantage to stopping the pass. However, some quick thoughts:
  • Completion % - His QB's only had a 45% completion percentage. So your defense was pretty effective at disrupting passes.
  • Yards/Completion - He averaged 13.7 yds/completion. That's not all that unusual for a high quality passing attack, so nothing all that out of the ordinary here.
Digging a little deeper:
  • Form IQ - His offensive Form IQ was on average 19.4 pts higher than your defense's. In fact, on 34.7% of the plays, your defense was at a 20+ Form IQ disadvantage. That's a significant difference, putting your defense at a significant disadvantage.
  • Blitzing - You brought the house regularly. By my count, you blitzed either your LB or SS on 83% of the pass plays. While that contributed greatly to the Completion % and you were able to grab 6 sacks, that left the middle of your defense highly exposed. You can see this by the fact that his RB's and TE's combined for an average of 15 yds/comp, whereas, his WR's averaged only 12 yds/comp.
  • Defensive Coverages - His QB attempted to throw Long on 9.3% of his passes. You were in PsL coverage on 43.5%. He threw Medium 86.7%, while you were in PsM coverage on 45.9%.
?Why do I highlight these stats you may ask?! Well, combined, you have a defense with low Form IQ, dropping into Long Coverage and blitzing from the middle. If he was smart, he would have stopped throwing to the WR's and just ate you alive all day in the middle. I would have roasted you for closer to 800 yards given the circumstances.
Let's peel these apart one at a time, but lets try to be more "general" in nature and not focus on this particular game. For the sake of discussion/debate, lets assume "equal talent" (and yes, I know thats a difficult item just in itself).

Formation IQ: The original question hits this one squarely on the nose. Why even try a Dime? Well, if the FIQ is not high enough...its a useless endeavor. A 20 point differential is huge. One automatically gives a significant advantage to the opponent.

So, lets fix that. Let us assume "equal" FIQ (which is the first thing to fix, IMO). Now we have equal talent and equal FIQ. Is the Dime a worthy defense?

I'm only playing with one team right now after a significant hiatus....but I'm not aware of anyone using the Dime on a regular basis. Do we have some examples of someone that uses it regularly?
7/13/2017 12:22 PM
realist9900 won an NC in D-II Warner with Grand Valley State only playing Dime.
7/13/2017 12:27 PM
Any defense and any offense is viable if played correctly. Pro Set has no particular advantage over dime than any other defense. To my knowledge, there is no baked in advantages to any offense/defense with the current engine.

nitros
7/13/2017 12:55 PM
Posted by harriswb3 on 7/13/2017 12:22:00 PM (view original):
Posted by orangepace on 7/12/2017 10:43:00 PM (view original):
Just took a quick look at your game in hopes I could provide some help, but damn, too much to know where to start. But I'll give it a good 'ole college try:

You used the Dime Formation, which should give you an advantage to stopping the pass. However, some quick thoughts:
  • Completion % - His QB's only had a 45% completion percentage. So your defense was pretty effective at disrupting passes.
  • Yards/Completion - He averaged 13.7 yds/completion. That's not all that unusual for a high quality passing attack, so nothing all that out of the ordinary here.
Digging a little deeper:
  • Form IQ - His offensive Form IQ was on average 19.4 pts higher than your defense's. In fact, on 34.7% of the plays, your defense was at a 20+ Form IQ disadvantage. That's a significant difference, putting your defense at a significant disadvantage.
  • Blitzing - You brought the house regularly. By my count, you blitzed either your LB or SS on 83% of the pass plays. While that contributed greatly to the Completion % and you were able to grab 6 sacks, that left the middle of your defense highly exposed. You can see this by the fact that his RB's and TE's combined for an average of 15 yds/comp, whereas, his WR's averaged only 12 yds/comp.
  • Defensive Coverages - His QB attempted to throw Long on 9.3% of his passes. You were in PsL coverage on 43.5%. He threw Medium 86.7%, while you were in PsM coverage on 45.9%.
?Why do I highlight these stats you may ask?! Well, combined, you have a defense with low Form IQ, dropping into Long Coverage and blitzing from the middle. If he was smart, he would have stopped throwing to the WR's and just ate you alive all day in the middle. I would have roasted you for closer to 800 yards given the circumstances.
Let's peel these apart one at a time, but lets try to be more "general" in nature and not focus on this particular game. For the sake of discussion/debate, lets assume "equal talent" (and yes, I know thats a difficult item just in itself).

Formation IQ: The original question hits this one squarely on the nose. Why even try a Dime? Well, if the FIQ is not high enough...its a useless endeavor. A 20 point differential is huge. One automatically gives a significant advantage to the opponent.

So, lets fix that. Let us assume "equal" FIQ (which is the first thing to fix, IMO). Now we have equal talent and equal FIQ. Is the Dime a worthy defense?

I'm only playing with one team right now after a significant hiatus....but I'm not aware of anyone using the Dime on a regular basis. Do we have some examples of someone that uses it regularly?
I'll play along... I purposefully laid out my response in the manner I did to emphasize that individually, any one of those factors on their own would be enough of an advantage in a game, with my game planning skills, to tip the scales to a win for me. But given that those 3 issues were compounded in that given situation, the advantage shift to the offense was, as is often the case, insurmountable. Honestly, I wasn't trying to attack raginirish at all, because that's not my style. I was actually just trying to point out that some significant errors were made in setting up his gameplan and I wanted to highlight them so that he could try to learn from them.

Btw... My analysis of his defense for that game took all of 5 minutes. A "good" game planner (my scale: Poor / Average / Good / Great / Elite), would have been able to capitalize on that situation.

Ok, so to play the game your way:
  • Form IQ - At lower divisions (D3 and D2), Form IQ advantages aren't as pronounced as they are at upper divisions. At lower divisions, Form IQ disadvantages can be overcome, or I should say offset, by talent and gameplanning advantages if they are in your favor. In the upper divisions, where talent disparity is more slight, Form IQ plays a more significant role in the proverbial "tug-of-war" to win a game. Each user needs to find their comfortable equilibrium in balancing Form IQ v Player Development. For example, an Elite game planner can sacrifice a greater disparity in Form IQ, because they will try to balance the scales through other means. Same goes for an Elite recruiter, Elite player developer, etc.
  • Blitzing - This can be a very effective strategy when deployed appropriately. This is a risk/reward factor. Blitzing provides pressure on the quarterback, forcing them to make a decision faster than they otherwise would have. The con to blitzing is that it leaves an element of your base defense at a disadvantage. Said more simply, blitzing typically leaves a hole in your coverage. Because of the risk/reward nature, it should be deployed strategically, rather than the norm. Show a person a hole that always exists and they surely will run through it.
  • Defensive Coverages - This is used to determine where your coverage scheme will function on a given play. Line them up Long to stop an opponent who gameplans to take shots over the top (Long/Deep) often. Line them up Short to stop an opponent who gameplans to dump the ball to the RB's or WR's on short routes often. Line them up Medium to try to be prepared to stop both. Lining up Medium provides a slight disadvantage if the opponent goes either Short or Long. It's a much smaller disadvantage to have your opponent try to go Long if you're lined up in Medium coverage as compared to Short coverage; and obviously vice versa.
Each of these elements shape how a defense will defend, no matter which formation is chosen -- 5-2 v 3-4 v Dime, etc. An analogy to help you understand (in case the above was too long-winded) --- Most people know what a Mr. Potatohead is. The Potato in a Mr. Potatohead is the Base Defense (5-2 v 3-4 v Dime, etc). But you can dress your potato up in many different ways! If you want to give that base potato "Deer in the headlights eyes," go for it. You shouldn't expect your completed potato, with the "blind-sided" eyes to go winning over any flirty-eye Mrs. Potatohead's!

Cheers!
7/13/2017 4:51 PM
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