Posted by MikeT23 on 4/21/2017 9:55:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 4/21/2017 9:05:00 AM (view original):
He was holding it. Not waving it around.

The so what is that we know exactly what happened.

The video has audio.

So what? A gun in a hand is a gun in a hand. If I'm pointing a gun at someone is that less dangerous than waving it around?

So what? Did the cops see the video of him picking up a BB gun before approaching him? I assume "no" since you didn't say "yes".

So what? You still didn't say "The cops snuck up on him and shot him." Which makes me believe they did not.

He wasn't pointing it at anyone. He was just holding a BB gun that he picked up off the shelf.

No, the cops didn't watch the video. So what. I'm not saying they should have. I'm saying there's no ambiguity.

You can watch the video. The cops creep around the aisle and pop him.

FWIW, the DA considered charging the 911 caller with a crime.

Also, Ohio is an open carry state. Are you arguing that people carrying guns should be killed without warning by police?

Let's do this easily.

A gun in hand is a gun in hand? Yes or No?
I still don't get the whole "VIDEO!!!" thing. The cops were exonerated despite the video. I'm assuming it proves nothing.
See above.

I'm arguing that holding a firearm in a public place for no apparent reason is a problem . I don't care if you have a permit or if the state is an open carry state. This will go back to yesterday's argument. You're in Wal-Mart to buy some underwear. You walk past a dude just standing there, gun in hand. Aren't you just the least tiny bit wary of him?

Posted by bad_luck on 4/21/2017 9:45:00 AM (view original):

Posted by all3 on 4/21/2017 9:26:00 AM (view original):
All this talk about police killing blacks, but no talk about blacks killing blacks. I never understand that. Why are the few black deaths at the hands of police such a huge issue and a hot political topic, but blacks killing themselves at a much, much, much higher rate is seemingly never worried about?

Black Lives Matter - except when taken by another black who's a non-cop? Seriously, why the massive double-standard of concern?

If someone is killed by a non-cop and that non-cop is found, they're arrested, charged, and go to trial. There's justice for the victim.

If someone is killed by a cop, the victim doesn't always get the same justice.

Time for you to check-out what % of non-police shootings actually result in an arrest.
It will once again prove how incredibly stupid you are.

Posted by MikeT23 on 4/21/2017 10:37:00 AM (view original):
Let's do this easily.

A gun in hand is a gun in hand? Yes or No?
I still don't get the whole "VIDEO!!!" thing. The cops were exonerated despite the video. I'm assuming it proves nothing.
See above.

I'm arguing that holding a firearm in a public place for no apparent reason is a problem . I don't care if you have a permit or if the state is an open carry state. This will go back to yesterday's argument. You're in Wal-Mart to buy some underwear. You walk past a dude just standing there, gun in hand. Aren't you just the least tiny bit wary of him?

I'm all for easy.

A BB gun was in his hand, yes. The cops were exonerated, yes. Hence the frustration from the black community. Crawford wasn't doing anything wrong. He wasn't doing anything dangerously. He wasn't ignoring or refusing to follow orders from police. He was just standing there, talking on the phone, holding a BB gun that he picked up off the shelf in the store he was in, in a state where it is legal to carry an actual gun. If you're going to argue fault in this mess, it's landing almost entirely on the guy that called 911 and the police.

You can argue that holding a firearm in a public place is a problem. I'd tend to agree with that. I think we should have more restrictive gun laws. On the other hand, I'd argue that the police shooting someone without warning for doing something that is perfectly legal is a problem.

Regarding, walking past someone holding a gun, yeah, I'd be wary. But I wouldn't kill him.

Posted by all3 on 4/21/2017 10:37:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 4/21/2017 9:45:00 AM (view original):

Posted by all3 on 4/21/2017 9:26:00 AM (view original):
All this talk about police killing blacks, but no talk about blacks killing blacks. I never understand that. Why are the few black deaths at the hands of police such a huge issue and a hot political topic, but blacks killing themselves at a much, much, much higher rate is seemingly never worried about?

Black Lives Matter - except when taken by another black who's a non-cop? Seriously, why the massive double-standard of concern?

If someone is killed by a non-cop and that non-cop is found, they're arrested, charged, and go to trial. There's justice for the victim.

If someone is killed by a cop, the victim doesn't always get the same justice.

Time for you to check-out what % of non-police shootings actually result in an arrest.
It will once again prove how incredibly stupid you are.

Let's say a non-police shooting is on video, the police know who the shooter is and where to find him.

They'll likely arrest and charge the killer, correct?

Posted by bad_luck on 4/21/2017 12:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 4/21/2017 10:37:00 AM (view original):
Let's do this easily.

A gun in hand is a gun in hand? Yes or No?
I still don't get the whole "VIDEO!!!" thing. The cops were exonerated despite the video. I'm assuming it proves nothing.
See above.

I'm arguing that holding a firearm in a public place for no apparent reason is a problem . I don't care if you have a permit or if the state is an open carry state. This will go back to yesterday's argument. You're in Wal-Mart to buy some underwear. You walk past a dude just standing there, gun in hand. Aren't you just the least tiny bit wary of him?

I'm all for easy.

A BB gun was in his hand, yes. The cops were exonerated, yes. Hence the frustration from the black community. Crawford wasn't doing anything wrong. He wasn't doing anything dangerously. He wasn't ignoring or refusing to follow orders from police. He was just standing there, talking on the phone, holding a BB gun that he picked up off the shelf in the store he was in, in a state where it is legal to carry an actual gun. If you're going to argue fault in this mess, it's landing almost entirely on the guy that called 911 and the police.

You can argue that holding a firearm in a public place is a problem. I'd tend to agree with that. I think we should have more restrictive gun laws. On the other hand, I'd argue that the police shooting someone without warning for doing something that is perfectly legal is a problem.

Regarding, walking past someone holding a gun, yeah, I'd be wary. But I wouldn't kill him.

What the police did was perfectly legal as well. There was no racist intent.

Posted by bad_luck on 4/21/2017 12:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 4/21/2017 10:37:00 AM (view original):
Let's do this easily.

A gun in hand is a gun in hand? Yes or No?
I still don't get the whole "VIDEO!!!" thing. The cops were exonerated despite the video. I'm assuming it proves nothing.
See above.

I'm arguing that holding a firearm in a public place for no apparent reason is a problem . I don't care if you have a permit or if the state is an open carry state. This will go back to yesterday's argument. You're in Wal-Mart to buy some underwear. You walk past a dude just standing there, gun in hand. Aren't you just the least tiny bit wary of him?

I'm all for easy.

A BB gun was in his hand, yes. The cops were exonerated, yes. Hence the frustration from the black community. Crawford wasn't doing anything wrong. He wasn't doing anything dangerously. He wasn't ignoring or refusing to follow orders from police. He was just standing there, talking on the phone, holding a BB gun that he picked up off the shelf in the store he was in, in a state where it is legal to carry an actual gun. If you're going to argue fault in this mess, it's landing almost entirely on the guy that called 911 and the police.

You can argue that holding a firearm in a public place is a problem. I'd tend to agree with that. I think we should have more restrictive gun laws. On the other hand, I'd argue that the police shooting someone without warning for doing something that is perfectly legal is a problem.

Regarding, walking past someone holding a gun, yeah, I'd be wary. But I wouldn't kill him.

So a gun in a hand is a gun in a hand. It's a "possible" threat to those around said person. And, quite honestly, there seems to be a lot of random shootings these days. I'll honestly say I don't know the specific race/religion of all but it's not old white people doing the shooting. So I fully understand why cops may be a little overaggressive in some instances. I wish they weren't but being a cop is a tough job. I think there's a lot of blame to be cast about in this specific case. Standing around holding a gun, regardless of what kind, puts YOU at risk. Didn't deserve to be shot but he put himself in a situation. Because, as you know, we don't have cops just walking around randomly shooting people. There's always something going on when that happens.

I'm for more restrictive gun laws too. If you're holding a gun in a public place, you need to be very aware of what's going on around. Maybe not yabbering on the phone is a good start.

So, if nothing else, standing around, casually holding a gun while talking on the phone is making people uncomfortable? Yeah, don't do that. Truth is, Wal-Mart isn't free of blame either. I wouldn't have BB guns there to just pick up. Package the damn things in some way or another. If I was the dude's family, I'd sue WM and the manufacturer too(I'm sure they sued the city and police department already).

Great. Back to my original point, Crawford wasn't a violent criminal.

Casually holding a firearm in a public area made him appear to be one.

But he wasn't, since what he was doing was legal. Don't the cops have a duty to do more than just shoot him without asking any questions?

Posted by bad_luck on 4/21/2017 12:41:00 PM (view original):
Great. Back to my original point, Crawford wasn't a violent criminal.

Perhaps not. But suppose you (or MikeT or whomever) is standing in a WalMart holding a BB gun. Some alarmist ******** (possibly even a racist alarmist ********) calls 911 and says "There's a guy wearing a BL t-shirt waving a gun around WalMart. I'm afraid he's gonna start shooting!"

Cops/SWAT get the message "Active shooter at WalMart, wearing a BL t-shirt". They're not gonna say "Hmmm, probably just a misunderstanding. Let's go talk to the person and clear this up." They're gonna go it with guns ready, possibly twitchy because they've never been around this kind of situation. They turn the corner, and the guy looks up and makes eye contact.

Were the cops wrong to shoot him? Probably. But not racist. They were responding to a call. They see a guy with a gun.

Everything starts at "racist" in BL's worldview. And he'll see racism everywhere, even where it doesn't exist. Because BLM is one of his big pet causes, and "everything is racist" is the foundation of BLM.

Posted by toddcommish on 4/21/2017 12:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 4/21/2017 12:41:00 PM (view original):
Great. Back to my original point, Crawford wasn't a violent criminal.

Perhaps not. But suppose you (or MikeT or whomever) is standing in a WalMart holding a BB gun. Some alarmist ******** (possibly even a racist alarmist ********) calls 911 and says "There's a guy wearing a BL t-shirt waving a gun around WalMart. I'm afraid he's gonna start shooting!"

Cops/SWAT get the message "Active shooter at WalMart, wearing a BL t-shirt". They're not gonna say "Hmmm, probably just a misunderstanding. Let's go talk to the person and clear this up." They're gonna go it with guns ready, possibly twitchy because they've never been around this kind of situation. They turn the corner, and the guy looks up and makes eye contact.

Were the cops wrong to shoot him? Probably. But not racist. They were responding to a call. They see a guy with a gun.

That's a problem.

It's a problem if they are twitchy and nervous and wrongly shoot anyone. My original point was that even people who aren't outwardly racist, who don't have any problems with black people, aren't in the KKK, etc., are prone to treating black people differently than how they'd treat white people in the same situation. Mike illustrated the point brilliantly when talking about how riots in another state cause him to be more wary of young black people.

That unfortunately common human reaction is unacceptable in the police force. Being a cop is hard. If you can't do it, you shouldn't be a cop.

I don't care what color a person is, if I'm a cop going into a situation where someone has a gun, I'm going to be a little nervous.