Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 10:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 9:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 9:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 8:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 8:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 12/5/2017 8:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 7:36:00 PM (view original):
And, if we're going to discuss what caused the recession, the only thing that "forced" banks to give loans to people that couldn't afford those loans was capitalism.

Banks certainly took advantage of sub-prime.... but then again greenspan kept the rates low... and consumers signed the biggest loan they will ever take in their lives without actually thinking it through....

Everyone is at fault... and there is one word to sum it up...

GREED.


I recall that I couldn't ride the train into the city without hearing people talking about flipping real estate at the time... it was insane. No matter where I went it was all the talk.

I’m not saying individuals getting the loans weren’t also to blame. But they also didn’t get a huge bailout like the banks did.

Yep, I hate bailouts. People talk about how disastrous it would be for the global economy without them, but I think the economy would recover. Let them fail. Because of the bailouts we're starting to see loans being handed out like candy again. It's a recipe for disaster. It's notable that I am extreme. I am totally against debt of any kind.

That is extreme. Almost no businesses would exist without debt.

See, I disagree. I think with more emphasis put on savings and slower, safer growth they would, but I am not going to judge those who have debt. I just choose not to have it.

Debt is a tool. If you wanted to start virtually any non-micro business right now, you’d need that tool.

If you ran an existing business and had an opportunity to grow significantly, you’d be a fool to pass out of fear of debt.

And, if you ran the government and found yourself in a recession caused by a lack of demand, you’d have to take on debt for the good of the people, like Reagan and Obama did.

The math doesn't work for me with debt. I know I'm extreme with this, but I own 5 prosperous businesses without debt. It's a personal choice for me that works. It can work on the national level. There are 5 countries in the world who are debt free.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 10:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 12/5/2017 9:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 9:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 9:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 9:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 7:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 7:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 5:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 5:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 4:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 3:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 2:51:00 PM (view original):
He hasn't failed yet. He's actually looking pretty good with the upward trends in the economy. The left wrote him off as a failure before he had even taken office, which to be fair the right did the same with Obama.

He’s riding Obama’s economy.

Nope. You can't have 8 years of mediocrity and then when a new admin comes in and rolls back your damaging regulations still get credit for a boost after you've left. Obama's economy failed. As I've said, had Obama's economy progressed throughout his tenure then he could take credit, but it didn't.

You have blinders on.

We have given you facts that support mediocrity. I'm not going to repost them, but you are more than welcome to go back through the pages and find them. You have supplied nothing that is an indicator of economic growth under Obama that is anywhere close to other post-recession recoveries. I don't have blinders, I have facts.

Who is this "we" you're referring to?

As I said before, growth was slower for Obama than it was for Reagan because Reagan was able to spend significantly more (relative GDP) than Obama was.

Don;t be dumb and act like the growth we're seeing now has anything to do with Trump. I promise that if the economy was tanking, you and moy and all the other MAGA cult members would be running around rightfully blaming Obama because his last fiscal year just ended and the economy is not a Ferrari the starts and stops on a dime. The thing is a giant tanker that actually moves long after the input was made.

S&P over the last 5 years:



The growth isn't because of Trump.

Here's GDP over the last ten years:

Bumping this in case strikeout comes back.

K?

You're S&P chart is blank. I haven't taken the time to do the math, but I would assume your 2nd chart shows roughly 2% annual growth.

The link keeps breaking.

I’m sure you can infer the point, though. The economy has been growing consistently for a almost a decade. Nothing has changed this year.

By your logic the Bill Clinton economy was really just an extension of the Reagan economy. Juss sayin'

Not really, since we hit a small recession in 1990.

Hmmmmm.... But George HW Bush was in office from '89-93.... so is the Clinton Boom because of George HW? When does the HW economy end and the Clinton economy begin? When does the Obama economy end and the Trump economy begin? Give me a date. Thanks.

Posted by moy23 on 12/5/2017 10:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 10:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 9:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 9:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 8:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 8:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 12/5/2017 8:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 7:36:00 PM (view original):
And, if we're going to discuss what caused the recession, the only thing that "forced" banks to give loans to people that couldn't afford those loans was capitalism.

Banks certainly took advantage of sub-prime.... but then again greenspan kept the rates low... and consumers signed the biggest loan they will ever take in their lives without actually thinking it through....

Everyone is at fault... and there is one word to sum it up...

GREED.


I recall that I couldn't ride the train into the city without hearing people talking about flipping real estate at the time... it was insane. No matter where I went it was all the talk.

I’m not saying individuals getting the loans weren’t also to blame. But they also didn’t get a huge bailout like the banks did.

Yep, I hate bailouts. People talk about how disastrous it would be for the global economy without them, but I think the economy would recover. Let them fail. Because of the bailouts we're starting to see loans being handed out like candy again. It's a recipe for disaster. It's notable that I am extreme. I am totally against debt of any kind.

That is extreme. Almost no businesses would exist without debt.

See, I disagree. I think with more emphasis put on savings and slower, safer growth they would, but I am not going to judge those who have debt. I just choose not to have it.

Debt is a tool. If you wanted to start virtually any non-micro business right now, you’d need that tool.

If you ran an existing business and had an opportunity to grow significantly, you’d be a fool to pass out of fear of debt.

And, if you ran the government and found yourself in a recession caused by a lack of demand, you’d have to take on debt for the good of the people, like Reagan and Obama did.

I actually do not disagree with you here, at least on an individual business case. debt is necessary if you want to expand your business. I can't think of any business that can do it without additional debt.

It can be done very easily. I have done it with 5 businesses.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 10:10:00 PM (view original):
And the slight increase from high 2s to low 3s is still on Obama.

A 50% increase is 'slight' LOL

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 10:10:00 PM (view original):
And the slight increase from high 2s to low 3s is still on Obama.

You may be right. There is no tangible way to prove it is or isn't. I stick to the "you can't have 8 mediocre years and take credit once you leave office philosophy." I feel that deregulation has led to instant growth. Like I say, this is a never-ending argument because neither us can prove our side.

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 10:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 10:10:00 PM (view original):
And the slight increase from high 2s to low 3s is still on Obama.

You may be right. There is no tangible way to prove it is or isn't. I stick to the "you can't have 8 mediocre years and take credit once you leave office philosophy." I feel that deregulation has led to instant growth. Like I say, this is a never-ending argument because neither us can prove our side.

It's Trump. Trump is killing it with a 3% GDP....

Obummer was a mere 2% growth... the worst economic recession recovery EVER!!!!!

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 10:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 10:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 9:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 9:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 8:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 8:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 12/5/2017 8:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 7:36:00 PM (view original):
And, if we're going to discuss what caused the recession, the only thing that "forced" banks to give loans to people that couldn't afford those loans was capitalism.

Banks certainly took advantage of sub-prime.... but then again greenspan kept the rates low... and consumers signed the biggest loan they will ever take in their lives without actually thinking it through....

Everyone is at fault... and there is one word to sum it up...

GREED.


I recall that I couldn't ride the train into the city without hearing people talking about flipping real estate at the time... it was insane. No matter where I went it was all the talk.

I’m not saying individuals getting the loans weren’t also to blame. But they also didn’t get a huge bailout like the banks did.

Yep, I hate bailouts. People talk about how disastrous it would be for the global economy without them, but I think the economy would recover. Let them fail. Because of the bailouts we're starting to see loans being handed out like candy again. It's a recipe for disaster. It's notable that I am extreme. I am totally against debt of any kind.

That is extreme. Almost no businesses would exist without debt.

See, I disagree. I think with more emphasis put on savings and slower, safer growth they would, but I am not going to judge those who have debt. I just choose not to have it.

Debt is a tool. If you wanted to start virtually any non-micro business right now, you’d need that tool.

If you ran an existing business and had an opportunity to grow significantly, you’d be a fool to pass out of fear of debt.

And, if you ran the government and found yourself in a recession caused by a lack of demand, you’d have to take on debt for the good of the people, like Reagan and Obama did.

The math doesn't work for me with debt. I know I'm extreme with this, but I own 5 prosperous businesses without debt. It's a personal choice for me that works. It can work on the national level. There are 5 countries in the world who are debt free.

Yeah, if you’re going to sell insurance or become a real estate agent, you probably can do it without debt (though most start up agencies do take on some debt to pay for insurance, office furniture, rent etc. until revenue begins to come in).

But if you’re opening a restaurant or a CNC shop or an auto garage, you need, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of dollars. That requires debt.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 10:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 10:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 10:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 9:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 9:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 8:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 8:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 12/5/2017 8:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 7:36:00 PM (view original):
And, if we're going to discuss what caused the recession, the only thing that "forced" banks to give loans to people that couldn't afford those loans was capitalism.

Banks certainly took advantage of sub-prime.... but then again greenspan kept the rates low... and consumers signed the biggest loan they will ever take in their lives without actually thinking it through....

Everyone is at fault... and there is one word to sum it up...

GREED.


I recall that I couldn't ride the train into the city without hearing people talking about flipping real estate at the time... it was insane. No matter where I went it was all the talk.

I’m not saying individuals getting the loans weren’t also to blame. But they also didn’t get a huge bailout like the banks did.

Yep, I hate bailouts. People talk about how disastrous it would be for the global economy without them, but I think the economy would recover. Let them fail. Because of the bailouts we're starting to see loans being handed out like candy again. It's a recipe for disaster. It's notable that I am extreme. I am totally against debt of any kind.

That is extreme. Almost no businesses would exist without debt.

See, I disagree. I think with more emphasis put on savings and slower, safer growth they would, but I am not going to judge those who have debt. I just choose not to have it.

Debt is a tool. If you wanted to start virtually any non-micro business right now, you’d need that tool.

If you ran an existing business and had an opportunity to grow significantly, you’d be a fool to pass out of fear of debt.

And, if you ran the government and found yourself in a recession caused by a lack of demand, you’d have to take on debt for the good of the people, like Reagan and Obama did.

The math doesn't work for me with debt. I know I'm extreme with this, but I own 5 prosperous businesses without debt. It's a personal choice for me that works. It can work on the national level. There are 5 countries in the world who are debt free.

Yeah, if you’re going to sell insurance or become a real estate agent, you probably can do it without debt (though most start up agencies do take on some debt to pay for insurance, office furniture, rent etc. until revenue begins to come in).

But if you’re opening a restaurant or a CNC shop or an auto garage, you need, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of dollars. That requires debt.

Yeah.... if you are going to make it big time you're taking on debt (or less favorably you're giving up equity in your company).

Posted by moy23 on 12/5/2017 10:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 10:02:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 12/5/2017 9:57:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 9:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 9:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 9:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 7:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 7:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 5:08:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 5:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 4:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 3:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 2:51:00 PM (view original):
He hasn't failed yet. He's actually looking pretty good with the upward trends in the economy. The left wrote him off as a failure before he had even taken office, which to be fair the right did the same with Obama.

He’s riding Obama’s economy.

Nope. You can't have 8 years of mediocrity and then when a new admin comes in and rolls back your damaging regulations still get credit for a boost after you've left. Obama's economy failed. As I've said, had Obama's economy progressed throughout his tenure then he could take credit, but it didn't.

You have blinders on.

We have given you facts that support mediocrity. I'm not going to repost them, but you are more than welcome to go back through the pages and find them. You have supplied nothing that is an indicator of economic growth under Obama that is anywhere close to other post-recession recoveries. I don't have blinders, I have facts.

Who is this "we" you're referring to?

As I said before, growth was slower for Obama than it was for Reagan because Reagan was able to spend significantly more (relative GDP) than Obama was.

Don;t be dumb and act like the growth we're seeing now has anything to do with Trump. I promise that if the economy was tanking, you and moy and all the other MAGA cult members would be running around rightfully blaming Obama because his last fiscal year just ended and the economy is not a Ferrari the starts and stops on a dime. The thing is a giant tanker that actually moves long after the input was made.

S&P over the last 5 years:



The growth isn't because of Trump.

Here's GDP over the last ten years:

Bumping this in case strikeout comes back.

K?

You're S&P chart is blank. I haven't taken the time to do the math, but I would assume your 2nd chart shows roughly 2% annual growth.

The link keeps breaking.

I’m sure you can infer the point, though. The economy has been growing consistently for a almost a decade. Nothing has changed this year.

By your logic the Bill Clinton economy was really just an extension of the Reagan economy. Juss sayin'

Not really, since we hit a small recession in 1990.

Hmmmmm.... But George HW Bush was in office from '89-93.... so is the Clinton Boom because of George HW? When does the HW economy end and the Clinton economy begin? When does the Obama economy end and the Trump economy begin? Give me a date. Thanks.

I definitely want answers to these questions.....

We will agree to disagree on debt. My way has worked for me. It has shaped my beliefs about it.

As as far as relinquishing equity. See Warren Buffet. He has done very well with a debt free model that required him to give up equity. I try to model my business practices after Berkshire Hathaway.

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 10:55:00 PM (view original):
We will agree to disagree on debt. My way has worked for me. It has shaped my beliefs about it.

As as far as relinquishing equity. See Warren Buffet. He has done very well with a debt free model that required him to give up equity. I try to model my business practices after Berkshire Hathaway.

not to burst your bubble but....

Berkshire Hathaway Inc. has a massive $63.2 billion deferred tax liability that Warren Buffett has equated to an interest-free loan from the U.S. government.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-03-08/buffett-s-berkshire-plans-bond-sale-to-repay-10-billion-loan

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 10:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 10:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 10:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 9:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 9:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 12/5/2017 8:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 8:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 12/5/2017 8:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 7:36:00 PM (view original):
And, if we're going to discuss what caused the recession, the only thing that "forced" banks to give loans to people that couldn't afford those loans was capitalism.

Banks certainly took advantage of sub-prime.... but then again greenspan kept the rates low... and consumers signed the biggest loan they will ever take in their lives without actually thinking it through....

Everyone is at fault... and there is one word to sum it up...

GREED.


I recall that I couldn't ride the train into the city without hearing people talking about flipping real estate at the time... it was insane. No matter where I went it was all the talk.

I’m not saying individuals getting the loans weren’t also to blame. But they also didn’t get a huge bailout like the banks did.

Yep, I hate bailouts. People talk about how disastrous it would be for the global economy without them, but I think the economy would recover. Let them fail. Because of the bailouts we're starting to see loans being handed out like candy again. It's a recipe for disaster. It's notable that I am extreme. I am totally against debt of any kind.

That is extreme. Almost no businesses would exist without debt.

See, I disagree. I think with more emphasis put on savings and slower, safer growth they would, but I am not going to judge those who have debt. I just choose not to have it.

Debt is a tool. If you wanted to start virtually any non-micro business right now, you’d need that tool.

If you ran an existing business and had an opportunity to grow significantly, you’d be a fool to pass out of fear of debt.

And, if you ran the government and found yourself in a recession caused by a lack of demand, you’d have to take on debt for the good of the people, like Reagan and Obama did.

The math doesn't work for me with debt. I know I'm extreme with this, but I own 5 prosperous businesses without debt. It's a personal choice for me that works. It can work on the national level. There are 5 countries in the world who are debt free.

Yeah, if you’re going to sell insurance or become a real estate agent, you probably can do it without debt (though most start up agencies do take on some debt to pay for insurance, office furniture, rent etc. until revenue begins to come in).

But if you’re opening a restaurant or a CNC shop or an auto garage, you need, at a minimum, hundreds of thousands of dollars. That requires debt.

We disagree again. I think of very few businesses that cost hundreds of thousands in startup. Let's talk just restaurants or auto shops. It sounds like you're working under the assumption that the entrepreneur is buying the building from startup. You have the option to rent. Now you only need equipment and miscellaneous costs. That's not hundreds of thousands in almost any business.

Truett Cathy, the founder of Chic Fil A started out of a food truck. He never took on debt.

No assumption that you’re buying a building. If you’re running a repair garage in a reasonably large city, you’re looking at 2,000-10,000 a month in rent. You need 50,000 worth of tools and equipment (lifts, computers, etc). You need parts. You need insurance. You need employees.

And you you need to be able to pay for all of that and your own personal expenses for 6-12 months without a dime of profit. That’s a ****-load of money.

The chick-fail-a dude might not have personally taken on debt, but his company did. I heard they paid it off, but it helped get them where they are.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 11:21:00 PM (view original):
No assumption that you’re buying a building. If you’re running a repair garage in a reasonably large city, you’re looking at 2,000-10,000 a month in rent. You need 50,000 worth of tools and equipment (lifts, computers, etc). You need parts. You need insurance. You need employees.

And you you need to be able to pay for all of that and your own personal expenses for 6-12 months without a dime of profit. That’s a ****-load of money.

The chick-fail-a dude might not have personally taken on debt, but his company did. I heard they paid it off, but it helped get them where they are.

I agree with BL. Lending is vital to most small and large businesses.

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2017 11:21:00 PM (view original):
No assumption that you’re buying a building. If you’re running a repair garage in a reasonably large city, you’re looking at 2,000-10,000 a month in rent. You need 50,000 worth of tools and equipment (lifts, computers, etc). You need parts. You need insurance. You need employees.

And you you need to be able to pay for all of that and your own personal expenses for 6-12 months without a dime of profit. That’s a ****-load of money.

The chick-fail-a dude might not have personally taken on debt, but his company did. I heard they paid it off, but it helped get them where they are.

I agree with your numbers, but you can cash flow $200,000 if you're patient. The reason people think debt is vital is because they get impatient.

A good example of a major problem with debt is investment property. I love when I hear about people financing investment property, because I know it is only a matter of time before I can buy it from the bank for about 70% of FMV.