Trump: Worst President Ever? Topic

Moy, please respond to my wall post
10/23/2017 6:30 PM
Posted by moy23 on 10/23/2017 6:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by DougOut on 10/23/2017 5:47:00 PM (view original):
Posted by laramiebob on 10/23/2017 5:38:00 PM (view original):
Indeed.
FINALLY!

We ALL agree he's not black.

What is he?
The. Worst. President. Ever.
Hey, another opinion that is patently false.
10/23/2017 6:32 PM
10/23/2017 6:35 PM
Posted by tangplay on 10/23/2017 6:30:00 PM (view original):
Moy, please respond to my wall post
It's too long of a answer. Bottom line is I think you're wrong.

You're not taking into account Human Nature. People are not going to risk getting their kids over a 25 foot or 30 foot fence. So if a million people are attempting to cross without a fence you'll probably find that number go drastically down with the increased risk of getting over a tall fence, wall, double fencing. Also, by having a fence the Border agents have already said it makes her job way easier. A fence gives them more time to catch illegal immigrants Crossing the border.

So I'll throw a hypothetical out there. Let's say a wall scares away 40% of potential attempts and because the guards have more time and are chasing less people they will apprehend 50%of those that try to cross (I actually think that percentage would be much much higher but let's use a conservative number). That means there's 600000 attempts rather than the million that are occurring today and of them 300,000 will be apprehended. If 1 million people were crossing and 400k were apprehended then that means 600,000 are getting in per year or six million are currently getting in every 10 years based on today's#s. Based on my hypothetical only 300,000 will be getting in per year or three million every 10 years that means a 22 billion dollar wall which cost less than 2 months of war in Iraq will prevent 3 million illegal aliens from getting into the country by foot. How many of those people are having babies, are committing crimes, using our hospitals without insurance, our schools, and taking American jobs? That cost alone is more than 22 billion dollars

You mentioned more people are coming here via Visa overstays and while that is a problem it's completely different and solvable in a different manner. To fly into the country one needs to get through customs. Secondly to get a Visa one needs to apply and it's a lengthy process. It's a much more lengthy process then crossing the border by foot. It's not just as easy as well hey you know what I'll just fly into the usa because there's a wall now.

The wall is only being built to stop the foot traffic from coming in. Besides the wall, which wouldn't be the only line of defense, we would need much stricter rules on what we do when illegals are caught by foot and by air, boat, etc. Whether that's jail time, deportation, or we just airlift them and drop them into North Korea for all I care, there needs to be a stiff penalty to make it less likely again based on human nature that people would want to even attempt to come into this country illegally. A a strong e-verify program with enormous fines and penalties on employers that hire illegals would also be a great thing to deter people from thinking they can get a job here in the United States if they cross the border illegally.

?It's not just the wall. The wall, fence, whatever you want to call it is just a small part of the overall program to reduce illegal immigrants from coming to this country. Bringing this Back To Human Nature, just look how many less illegals are trying to get into the country now that Trump is just simply talking a big game. A wall is more than just talking a wall is a quite a deterrent.
10/23/2017 7:08 PM
People throw their kids in row boats and try to reach our shores from Cuba in raging storms....they trek all the way from Central America, across Mexico with their kids...you think a fence is going to stop them because it's against human nature? Human nature is to protect our offspring at any cost.
10/23/2017 7:20 PM
"Please tear down this wall"
Pres Raygun

"Please build this wall"
Pres Dump




You fascists on the right can never make up your minds
10/23/2017 7:21 PM
Posted by moy23 on 10/23/2017 7:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tangplay on 10/23/2017 6:30:00 PM (view original):
Moy, please respond to my wall post
It's too long of a answer. Bottom line is I think you're wrong.

You're not taking into account Human Nature. People are not going to risk getting their kids over a 25 foot or 30 foot fence. So if a million people are attempting to cross without a fence you'll probably find that number go drastically down with the increased risk of getting over a tall fence, wall, double fencing. Also, by having a fence the Border agents have already said it makes her job way easier. A fence gives them more time to catch illegal immigrants Crossing the border.

So I'll throw a hypothetical out there. Let's say a wall scares away 40% of potential attempts and because the guards have more time and are chasing less people they will apprehend 50%of those that try to cross (I actually think that percentage would be much much higher but let's use a conservative number). That means there's 600000 attempts rather than the million that are occurring today and of them 300,000 will be apprehended. If 1 million people were crossing and 400k were apprehended then that means 600,000 are getting in per year or six million are currently getting in every 10 years based on today's#s. Based on my hypothetical only 300,000 will be getting in per year or three million every 10 years that means a 22 billion dollar wall which cost less than 2 months of war in Iraq will prevent 3 million illegal aliens from getting into the country by foot. How many of those people are having babies, are committing crimes, using our hospitals without insurance, our schools, and taking American jobs? That cost alone is more than 22 billion dollars

You mentioned more people are coming here via Visa overstays and while that is a problem it's completely different and solvable in a different manner. To fly into the country one needs to get through customs. Secondly to get a Visa one needs to apply and it's a lengthy process. It's a much more lengthy process then crossing the border by foot. It's not just as easy as well hey you know what I'll just fly into the usa because there's a wall now.

The wall is only being built to stop the foot traffic from coming in. Besides the wall, which wouldn't be the only line of defense, we would need much stricter rules on what we do when illegals are caught by foot and by air, boat, etc. Whether that's jail time, deportation, or we just airlift them and drop them into North Korea for all I care, there needs to be a stiff penalty to make it less likely again based on human nature that people would want to even attempt to come into this country illegally. A a strong e-verify program with enormous fines and penalties on employers that hire illegals would also be a great thing to deter people from thinking they can get a job here in the United States if they cross the border illegally.

?It's not just the wall. The wall, fence, whatever you want to call it is just a small part of the overall program to reduce illegal immigrants from coming to this country. Bringing this Back To Human Nature, just look how many less illegals are trying to get into the country now that Trump is just simply talking a big game. A wall is more than just talking a wall is a quite a deterrent.
1. If people already get into the country, they will not be scared by a wall. There are airplanes. There are tunnels.
2. I disagree with your estimate. Let's say 1 million people are crossing the border. Let's say that the wall would scare away 10% of them (A HIGH estimate considering that just crossing the border is not the main use of getting away.) Let's say that an additional 10% would be caught. (Again, high estimate). So the wall would prevent, at most, 200,000 illegals. 2 mill each 10 years. Is that really enough? Remember, 22 mil is MORE THAN NASA'S BUDGET. Imagine the educational, scientific, medical advances we could use with that wasted money! War is expensive. We would use the money on the things I have just listed and benefit all people!
3. The problem is that people legally apply for VISAs then overstay them. You can't just ban all mexicans from legally entering the country, which is the only way to stop that. If I wanted to illegally cross the border, I REALLY don't want to stay in Mexico. I don't think it is a stretch to say that desperate families would turn to the easier, safer way of crossing the border. It really is that easy.
4. Remember that 1/30 americans are illegal immigrants. This would cause massive fear among citizens and destroy the economy IMO. It would also be a PR disaster. Foot traffic makes up a small portion of border crossings.
5. It won't stop the 'big issue' though. IMO it just is not worth the investment to divide the people for, by my calculations, at MAX, 200,000 people per year. We already have lots of border control.
10/23/2017 7:25 PM

The Trump administration and Republican Congressional leadership want to go big on tax reform. They have proposed a broad set of changes to the corporate and personal income tax codes, including tax cuts and revenue raisers.

While the proposal is light on many important details, taken in total, it would not add significantly to economic growth, but it would add significantly to future budget deficits and the nation’s debt load.

Boon for business

Businesses would be big beneficiaries of the Republican plan, enjoying an estimated net tax cut of $2.5 trillion over 10 years on a static basis—ignoring the impact of the tax cuts on the economy and thus tax revenues. Large multinationals would benefit by a move from the current global taxation system to a territorial one, and a one-time tax holiday on the trillions in earnings they are holding overseas to avoid the current high tax rate. Smaller pass-through entities—businesses whose owners pay personal income tax on their companies’ earnings—would see their top tax rate decline significantly.

The biggest corporate tax expense is the proposed reduction in the top marginal rate from 35% to 20% and repeal of the corporate alternative minimum tax. Lowering the top tax rate on pass-through income and allowing businesses to reduce their tax bill by completely expensing their investment for at least five years are also costly. To help pay for this largess, the plan eliminates business-related tax loopholes, although they are not spelled out, and even closing them all would not raise much revenue. Deducting interest payments made by businesses would also be partially limited, although the proposal is also opaque on how this would work.

Wash for individuals

Individuals as a whole get no tax cut under the Republican plan, although some do very well under the plan while others get dinged. The big winners are the top 5% of taxpayers, with current incomes well over $300,000 per year. Taxpayers that make between $150,000 and $300,000 per year benefit the least, and would actually eventually pay more in taxes. Taxpayers making less than $150,000 will take home a modestly higher sum after-tax.

The biggest individual tax expense is the proposal to collapse the current seven tax brackets into three or perhaps four brackets. The standard deduction would increase significantly, as would the child tax credit. The estate tax and alternative minimum tax would also be eliminated—a boon to wealthy households. To help pay for these cuts, the plan eliminates personal exemptions except for mortgage interest and charitable giving along with most itemized deductions. The big revenue raiser is the elimination of deductions for state and local income, sales tax and property taxes.

Stronger growth?

Boosters of the Republican tax proposal argue that it will significantly increase economic growth. The most common refrain is that it will lift real GDP growth closer to 3% per annum from the roughly 2% that has prevailed during the current expansion. They also argue that this additional growth will generate roughly enough additional tax revenue for the plan to pay for itself. That is, there would be large so-called supply-side effects from the tax cuts. So large that on a dynamic basis—after accounting for the bigger economy—the plan will not add to the nation’s deficits and debt.

They are wrong on both counts. The plan will not meaningfully improve economic growth, at least not on a sustained basis. Growth would be stronger initially, since the deficit-financed tax cuts are fiscal stimulus. Given that the economy is currently operating at full employment, however, stronger inflation and higher interest rates will result. The higher rates wash out the economic benefit of the lower tax rates on investment, and the economy ends up no bigger than it would have been without the tax cuts.

This is evident in simulations of the Moody’s Analytics macro model, which is similar to models used by the Federal Reserve, Congressional Budget Office, and the Joint Committee on Taxation—the official budget scorer of tax legislation. Real GDP growth is just over half a percentage point stronger in 2018 because of the plan, which pushes unemployment to below 4% by year’s end. The Fed responds by tightening monetary policy more aggressively, and long-term interest rates jump due to the Fed tightening and to investor expectations of larger future budget deficits.

While lower tax rates incentivize more investment, the higher interest rates hurt it. In the end, the economic lift from the tax cuts is marginal, adding an estimated 4 basis point per annum to real GDP growth over the next decade. That is the tax plan will not lift growth from 2% to 3%, as the proponents argue, but from 2% to 2.04%.

Big dynamic deficits

No harm, no foul. Right? Unfortunately no, as the plan will also significantly exacerbate the nation’s fiscal problems. The dynamic cost of the plan to taxpayers is not much different from its dynamic cost. There are economic benefits on revenues from the lower marginal rates, but they are not sufficient to pay for the cuts. Government borrowing thus increases, causing interest payments on the accumulating debt to rise. The added interest payments offset the economic benefits on revenues, making the static and dynamic budget deficit and debt load about the same. Under the Republican tax plan, the government’s debt-to-GDP ratio rises from just over 75% today to more than 100% a decade from now, measured on either a static or a dynamic basis.

Plusses and minuses

There are aspects of the tax plan that are difficult to model and quantify: Some add to economic growth, and others detract from it, but on net, they cancel each other out. On the plus side is moving from a global to a territorial system, which will stop inversions by U.S.-based multinationals, ensuring more headquarters stay here. On the downside it will very likely sunset in 10 years. Under Senate rules, tax and spending legislation that passes using the reconciliation process, in which only a simple majority of votes is required, must be deficit-neutral by the last year of the 10-year budget horizon. If the JCT scored-legislation shows there will be a deficit a decade from now, then all of the provisions in that legislation expire. This is a likely fate. Uncertainty over how future lawmakers would deal with this tax cliff will crimp investment, particularly longer-lived risker types, as the cliff comes into view.

What next?

Clearly, nothing like the plan Republicans recently put forward will become law. The plan does not just fail to lift economic growth meaningfully, it adds significantly to the nation’s fiscal problems. It also is politically unpalatable. The brouhaha over eliminating the state and local income tax deduction, the principal source of additional tax revenue in the plan, has even forced some of the authors of the legislation to step back from it.

If a tax bill makes it into law, and odds appear no better than even that one will, then it will be significantly scaled back. The Senate already put some limits around the tax legislation when it recently passed a budget resolution, necessary for the use of the reconciliation process, which limits the total cost of tax reform to $1.5 trillion over the 10-year horizon. Even this seems a political stretch.

Tax reform would be a big win, but to boost economic growth on a sustained basis, it must be dynamically deficit neutral. Particularly when the economy is operating at full employment, as it is today. This is very difficult to do. It is increasingly difficult to see the Trump administration and Congress getting it done.

10/23/2017 8:05 PM
Posted by tangplay on 10/23/2017 7:25:00 PM (view original):
Posted by moy23 on 10/23/2017 7:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tangplay on 10/23/2017 6:30:00 PM (view original):
Moy, please respond to my wall post
It's too long of a answer. Bottom line is I think you're wrong.

You're not taking into account Human Nature. People are not going to risk getting their kids over a 25 foot or 30 foot fence. So if a million people are attempting to cross without a fence you'll probably find that number go drastically down with the increased risk of getting over a tall fence, wall, double fencing. Also, by having a fence the Border agents have already said it makes her job way easier. A fence gives them more time to catch illegal immigrants Crossing the border.

So I'll throw a hypothetical out there. Let's say a wall scares away 40% of potential attempts and because the guards have more time and are chasing less people they will apprehend 50%of those that try to cross (I actually think that percentage would be much much higher but let's use a conservative number). That means there's 600000 attempts rather than the million that are occurring today and of them 300,000 will be apprehended. If 1 million people were crossing and 400k were apprehended then that means 600,000 are getting in per year or six million are currently getting in every 10 years based on today's#s. Based on my hypothetical only 300,000 will be getting in per year or three million every 10 years that means a 22 billion dollar wall which cost less than 2 months of war in Iraq will prevent 3 million illegal aliens from getting into the country by foot. How many of those people are having babies, are committing crimes, using our hospitals without insurance, our schools, and taking American jobs? That cost alone is more than 22 billion dollars

You mentioned more people are coming here via Visa overstays and while that is a problem it's completely different and solvable in a different manner. To fly into the country one needs to get through customs. Secondly to get a Visa one needs to apply and it's a lengthy process. It's a much more lengthy process then crossing the border by foot. It's not just as easy as well hey you know what I'll just fly into the usa because there's a wall now.

The wall is only being built to stop the foot traffic from coming in. Besides the wall, which wouldn't be the only line of defense, we would need much stricter rules on what we do when illegals are caught by foot and by air, boat, etc. Whether that's jail time, deportation, or we just airlift them and drop them into North Korea for all I care, there needs to be a stiff penalty to make it less likely again based on human nature that people would want to even attempt to come into this country illegally. A a strong e-verify program with enormous fines and penalties on employers that hire illegals would also be a great thing to deter people from thinking they can get a job here in the United States if they cross the border illegally.

?It's not just the wall. The wall, fence, whatever you want to call it is just a small part of the overall program to reduce illegal immigrants from coming to this country. Bringing this Back To Human Nature, just look how many less illegals are trying to get into the country now that Trump is just simply talking a big game. A wall is more than just talking a wall is a quite a deterrent.
1. If people already get into the country, they will not be scared by a wall. There are airplanes. There are tunnels.
2. I disagree with your estimate. Let's say 1 million people are crossing the border. Let's say that the wall would scare away 10% of them (A HIGH estimate considering that just crossing the border is not the main use of getting away.) Let's say that an additional 10% would be caught. (Again, high estimate). So the wall would prevent, at most, 200,000 illegals. 2 mill each 10 years. Is that really enough? Remember, 22 mil is MORE THAN NASA'S BUDGET. Imagine the educational, scientific, medical advances we could use with that wasted money! War is expensive. We would use the money on the things I have just listed and benefit all people!
3. The problem is that people legally apply for VISAs then overstay them. You can't just ban all mexicans from legally entering the country, which is the only way to stop that. If I wanted to illegally cross the border, I REALLY don't want to stay in Mexico. I don't think it is a stretch to say that desperate families would turn to the easier, safer way of crossing the border. It really is that easy.
4. Remember that 1/30 americans are illegal immigrants. This would cause massive fear among citizens and destroy the economy IMO. It would also be a PR disaster. Foot traffic makes up a small portion of border crossings.
5. It won't stop the 'big issue' though. IMO it just is not worth the investment to divide the people for, by my calculations, at MAX, 200,000 people per year. We already have lots of border control.
1) Airplanes? How would one ILLEGALLY get into the country on an airplane?

2) would you rather rob fort knox or a bank? A bank, because it's less risky. If getting into the US is more risky than going to another country illegally then less people will do it. Humane Nature. The wall is only one of the impending challenges to come here illegally. Right now walking into this country isn't much of a challenge.

3) 40% of the problem is visa overstays (http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/sep/08/jorge-ramos/ramos-40-undocumented-immigrants-come-air/). Clearly this is not addressed via the wall. A simple solution to reduce visa overstays would be to reduce the number of visas issued. That's not THAT hard. Trump's already doing that. Also, it's not just Mexicans crossing the border, many are from Central and South America just passing through Mexico. Maybe a wall keeps them in Mexico, and not the USA.

4) I don't believe in doomsday scenarios... You might as well tell me Y2K or the end of the Mayan calendar will be the end of the planet... Or that Trump will be the death of the s&p if he's elected. There's no proof of any of what you said is true here and a wall is only stopping NEW illegals from coming to the US and for repeat deportees from coming back.

5) I don't know what the big issue is. Seriously 22 billion is a drop in the bucket for this country. We probably spend that for 3-4 new fighter jets.
10/23/2017 8:26 PM
Posted by moy23 on 10/23/2017 8:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tangplay on 10/23/2017 7:25:00 PM (view original):
Posted by moy23 on 10/23/2017 7:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tangplay on 10/23/2017 6:30:00 PM (view original):
Moy, please respond to my wall post
It's too long of a answer. Bottom line is I think you're wrong.

You're not taking into account Human Nature. People are not going to risk getting their kids over a 25 foot or 30 foot fence. So if a million people are attempting to cross without a fence you'll probably find that number go drastically down with the increased risk of getting over a tall fence, wall, double fencing. Also, by having a fence the Border agents have already said it makes her job way easier. A fence gives them more time to catch illegal immigrants Crossing the border.

So I'll throw a hypothetical out there. Let's say a wall scares away 40% of potential attempts and because the guards have more time and are chasing less people they will apprehend 50%of those that try to cross (I actually think that percentage would be much much higher but let's use a conservative number). That means there's 600000 attempts rather than the million that are occurring today and of them 300,000 will be apprehended. If 1 million people were crossing and 400k were apprehended then that means 600,000 are getting in per year or six million are currently getting in every 10 years based on today's#s. Based on my hypothetical only 300,000 will be getting in per year or three million every 10 years that means a 22 billion dollar wall which cost less than 2 months of war in Iraq will prevent 3 million illegal aliens from getting into the country by foot. How many of those people are having babies, are committing crimes, using our hospitals without insurance, our schools, and taking American jobs? That cost alone is more than 22 billion dollars

You mentioned more people are coming here via Visa overstays and while that is a problem it's completely different and solvable in a different manner. To fly into the country one needs to get through customs. Secondly to get a Visa one needs to apply and it's a lengthy process. It's a much more lengthy process then crossing the border by foot. It's not just as easy as well hey you know what I'll just fly into the usa because there's a wall now.

The wall is only being built to stop the foot traffic from coming in. Besides the wall, which wouldn't be the only line of defense, we would need much stricter rules on what we do when illegals are caught by foot and by air, boat, etc. Whether that's jail time, deportation, or we just airlift them and drop them into North Korea for all I care, there needs to be a stiff penalty to make it less likely again based on human nature that people would want to even attempt to come into this country illegally. A a strong e-verify program with enormous fines and penalties on employers that hire illegals would also be a great thing to deter people from thinking they can get a job here in the United States if they cross the border illegally.

?It's not just the wall. The wall, fence, whatever you want to call it is just a small part of the overall program to reduce illegal immigrants from coming to this country. Bringing this Back To Human Nature, just look how many less illegals are trying to get into the country now that Trump is just simply talking a big game. A wall is more than just talking a wall is a quite a deterrent.
1. If people already get into the country, they will not be scared by a wall. There are airplanes. There are tunnels.
2. I disagree with your estimate. Let's say 1 million people are crossing the border. Let's say that the wall would scare away 10% of them (A HIGH estimate considering that just crossing the border is not the main use of getting away.) Let's say that an additional 10% would be caught. (Again, high estimate). So the wall would prevent, at most, 200,000 illegals. 2 mill each 10 years. Is that really enough? Remember, 22 mil is MORE THAN NASA'S BUDGET. Imagine the educational, scientific, medical advances we could use with that wasted money! War is expensive. We would use the money on the things I have just listed and benefit all people!
3. The problem is that people legally apply for VISAs then overstay them. You can't just ban all mexicans from legally entering the country, which is the only way to stop that. If I wanted to illegally cross the border, I REALLY don't want to stay in Mexico. I don't think it is a stretch to say that desperate families would turn to the easier, safer way of crossing the border. It really is that easy.
4. Remember that 1/30 americans are illegal immigrants. This would cause massive fear among citizens and destroy the economy IMO. It would also be a PR disaster. Foot traffic makes up a small portion of border crossings.
5. It won't stop the 'big issue' though. IMO it just is not worth the investment to divide the people for, by my calculations, at MAX, 200,000 people per year. We already have lots of border control.
1) Airplanes? How would one ILLEGALLY get into the country on an airplane?

2) would you rather rob fort knox or a bank? A bank, because it's less risky. If getting into the US is more risky than going to another country illegally then less people will do it. Humane Nature. The wall is only one of the impending challenges to come here illegally. Right now walking into this country isn't much of a challenge.

3) 40% of the problem is visa overstays (http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/sep/08/jorge-ramos/ramos-40-undocumented-immigrants-come-air/). Clearly this is not addressed via the wall. A simple solution to reduce visa overstays would be to reduce the number of visas issued. That's not THAT hard. Trump's already doing that. Also, it's not just Mexicans crossing the border, many are from Central and South America just passing through Mexico. Maybe a wall keeps them in Mexico, and not the USA.

4) I don't believe in doomsday scenarios... You might as well tell me Y2K or the end of the Mayan calendar will be the end of the planet... Or that Trump will be the death of the s&p if he's elected. There's no proof of any of what you said is true here and a wall is only stopping NEW illegals from coming to the US and for repeat deportees from coming back.

5) I don't know what the big issue is. Seriously 22 billion is a drop in the bucket for this country. We probably spend that for 3-4 new fighter jets.
1. They LEGALLY get a visa, come in on an airplane, and overstay their VISAs. That is the most common form of illegal immigration to the USA.
2. We already have a fence through most, and INTENSE border security. A wall won't do much more than we already do.
3. VISA OVERSTAYS ARE THROUGH AIRPLANES... How would you reduce VISA's issued while still being fail? You are pointing out the flaws in your own argument. There are other ways to tackle illegals without an expensive and useless wall.
4. If 1/30 of americans got deported I believe it would cause a market collapse... It is not as simple as deporting everyone. And you pointed out another problem with the wall, which is that it stops circular flow.
5. Again, 22 billion is more than NASA's budget. We could fix our education system with that budget. We could, you know, also cut the military in half, because we spend WAYYYY too much on it, as you have mentioned, but 22 billion can be used for something other than a pointless wall.
10/23/2017 9:57 PM
Posted by tangplay on 10/23/2017 9:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by moy23 on 10/23/2017 8:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tangplay on 10/23/2017 7:25:00 PM (view original):
Posted by moy23 on 10/23/2017 7:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tangplay on 10/23/2017 6:30:00 PM (view original):
Moy, please respond to my wall post
It's too long of a answer. Bottom line is I think you're wrong.

You're not taking into account Human Nature. People are not going to risk getting their kids over a 25 foot or 30 foot fence. So if a million people are attempting to cross without a fence you'll probably find that number go drastically down with the increased risk of getting over a tall fence, wall, double fencing. Also, by having a fence the Border agents have already said it makes her job way easier. A fence gives them more time to catch illegal immigrants Crossing the border.

So I'll throw a hypothetical out there. Let's say a wall scares away 40% of potential attempts and because the guards have more time and are chasing less people they will apprehend 50%of those that try to cross (I actually think that percentage would be much much higher but let's use a conservative number). That means there's 600000 attempts rather than the million that are occurring today and of them 300,000 will be apprehended. If 1 million people were crossing and 400k were apprehended then that means 600,000 are getting in per year or six million are currently getting in every 10 years based on today's#s. Based on my hypothetical only 300,000 will be getting in per year or three million every 10 years that means a 22 billion dollar wall which cost less than 2 months of war in Iraq will prevent 3 million illegal aliens from getting into the country by foot. How many of those people are having babies, are committing crimes, using our hospitals without insurance, our schools, and taking American jobs? That cost alone is more than 22 billion dollars

You mentioned more people are coming here via Visa overstays and while that is a problem it's completely different and solvable in a different manner. To fly into the country one needs to get through customs. Secondly to get a Visa one needs to apply and it's a lengthy process. It's a much more lengthy process then crossing the border by foot. It's not just as easy as well hey you know what I'll just fly into the usa because there's a wall now.

The wall is only being built to stop the foot traffic from coming in. Besides the wall, which wouldn't be the only line of defense, we would need much stricter rules on what we do when illegals are caught by foot and by air, boat, etc. Whether that's jail time, deportation, or we just airlift them and drop them into North Korea for all I care, there needs to be a stiff penalty to make it less likely again based on human nature that people would want to even attempt to come into this country illegally. A a strong e-verify program with enormous fines and penalties on employers that hire illegals would also be a great thing to deter people from thinking they can get a job here in the United States if they cross the border illegally.

?It's not just the wall. The wall, fence, whatever you want to call it is just a small part of the overall program to reduce illegal immigrants from coming to this country. Bringing this Back To Human Nature, just look how many less illegals are trying to get into the country now that Trump is just simply talking a big game. A wall is more than just talking a wall is a quite a deterrent.
1. If people already get into the country, they will not be scared by a wall. There are airplanes. There are tunnels.
2. I disagree with your estimate. Let's say 1 million people are crossing the border. Let's say that the wall would scare away 10% of them (A HIGH estimate considering that just crossing the border is not the main use of getting away.) Let's say that an additional 10% would be caught. (Again, high estimate). So the wall would prevent, at most, 200,000 illegals. 2 mill each 10 years. Is that really enough? Remember, 22 mil is MORE THAN NASA'S BUDGET. Imagine the educational, scientific, medical advances we could use with that wasted money! War is expensive. We would use the money on the things I have just listed and benefit all people!
3. The problem is that people legally apply for VISAs then overstay them. You can't just ban all mexicans from legally entering the country, which is the only way to stop that. If I wanted to illegally cross the border, I REALLY don't want to stay in Mexico. I don't think it is a stretch to say that desperate families would turn to the easier, safer way of crossing the border. It really is that easy.
4. Remember that 1/30 americans are illegal immigrants. This would cause massive fear among citizens and destroy the economy IMO. It would also be a PR disaster. Foot traffic makes up a small portion of border crossings.
5. It won't stop the 'big issue' though. IMO it just is not worth the investment to divide the people for, by my calculations, at MAX, 200,000 people per year. We already have lots of border control.
1) Airplanes? How would one ILLEGALLY get into the country on an airplane?

2) would you rather rob fort knox or a bank? A bank, because it's less risky. If getting into the US is more risky than going to another country illegally then less people will do it. Humane Nature. The wall is only one of the impending challenges to come here illegally. Right now walking into this country isn't much of a challenge.

3) 40% of the problem is visa overstays (http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/sep/08/jorge-ramos/ramos-40-undocumented-immigrants-come-air/). Clearly this is not addressed via the wall. A simple solution to reduce visa overstays would be to reduce the number of visas issued. That's not THAT hard. Trump's already doing that. Also, it's not just Mexicans crossing the border, many are from Central and South America just passing through Mexico. Maybe a wall keeps them in Mexico, and not the USA.

4) I don't believe in doomsday scenarios... You might as well tell me Y2K or the end of the Mayan calendar will be the end of the planet... Or that Trump will be the death of the s&p if he's elected. There's no proof of any of what you said is true here and a wall is only stopping NEW illegals from coming to the US and for repeat deportees from coming back.

5) I don't know what the big issue is. Seriously 22 billion is a drop in the bucket for this country. We probably spend that for 3-4 new fighter jets.
1. They LEGALLY get a visa, come in on an airplane, and overstay their VISAs. That is the most common form of illegal immigration to the USA.
2. We already have a fence through most, and INTENSE border security. A wall won't do much more than we already do.
3. VISA OVERSTAYS ARE THROUGH AIRPLANES... How would you reduce VISA's issued while still being fail? You are pointing out the flaws in your own argument. There are other ways to tackle illegals without an expensive and useless wall.
4. If 1/30 of americans got deported I believe it would cause a market collapse... It is not as simple as deporting everyone. And you pointed out another problem with the wall, which is that it stops circular flow.
5. Again, 22 billion is more than NASA's budget. We could fix our education system with that budget. We could, you know, also cut the military in half, because we spend WAYYYY too much on it, as you have mentioned, but 22 billion can be used for something other than a pointless wall.
1) Lol... well if they are legally obtaining visas to take a plane into the USA instead of trying to climb over a wall then the wall IS WORKING. Now we have only one primary way that illegals are entering the country.
2) Putting a fence around a quarter of a yard doesn't do ****.... putting a fence around a quarter of the southern border also doesn't do ****. Easy concept.
3) Illegals are coming in the country on two fronts, visa overstays and the southern border. Both need to be addressed. The wall addresses the southern border. An alternative approach would be needed to tackle visa overstays.
4) A wall has nothing to do with deportations. That's decided by policy from congress and the white house. Is the circular flow you are referring to like how that illegal immigrant crossed the southern border seven times before murdering Kate Steinle?
5) There's a lot of estimates out there saying it will only cost around $15 billion. The US collects $3.7 TRILLION in annual taxes... spending $15-22 billion is a pittance compared to that. If fences were pointless then why does the white house have a fence around it and why did obama make that fence higher?
10/23/2017 11:06 PM (edited)
Posted by RCBracco on 10/23/2017 7:21:00 PM (view original):
"Please tear down this wall"
Pres Raygun

"Please build this wall"
Pres Dump




You fascists on the right can never make up your minds
I couldn't care less about a wall, but seriously....keeping people in and keeping people out are very different things



why don't you put the lock and chain on the outside of your front door?
10/24/2017 12:18 AM
Posted by edsortails on 10/24/2017 12:18:00 AM (view original):
Posted by RCBracco on 10/23/2017 7:21:00 PM (view original):
"Please tear down this wall"
Pres Raygun

"Please build this wall"
Pres Dump




You fascists on the right can never make up your minds
I couldn't care less about a wall, but seriously....keeping people in and keeping people out are very different things



why don't you put the lock and chain on the outside of your front door?
Humor is lost with you people
10/24/2017 8:32 AM
Posted by moy23 on 10/23/2017 11:06:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tangplay on 10/23/2017 9:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by moy23 on 10/23/2017 8:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tangplay on 10/23/2017 7:25:00 PM (view original):
Posted by moy23 on 10/23/2017 7:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tangplay on 10/23/2017 6:30:00 PM (view original):
Moy, please respond to my wall post
It's too long of a answer. Bottom line is I think you're wrong.

You're not taking into account Human Nature. People are not going to risk getting their kids over a 25 foot or 30 foot fence. So if a million people are attempting to cross without a fence you'll probably find that number go drastically down with the increased risk of getting over a tall fence, wall, double fencing. Also, by having a fence the Border agents have already said it makes her job way easier. A fence gives them more time to catch illegal immigrants Crossing the border.

So I'll throw a hypothetical out there. Let's say a wall scares away 40% of potential attempts and because the guards have more time and are chasing less people they will apprehend 50%of those that try to cross (I actually think that percentage would be much much higher but let's use a conservative number). That means there's 600000 attempts rather than the million that are occurring today and of them 300,000 will be apprehended. If 1 million people were crossing and 400k were apprehended then that means 600,000 are getting in per year or six million are currently getting in every 10 years based on today's#s. Based on my hypothetical only 300,000 will be getting in per year or three million every 10 years that means a 22 billion dollar wall which cost less than 2 months of war in Iraq will prevent 3 million illegal aliens from getting into the country by foot. How many of those people are having babies, are committing crimes, using our hospitals without insurance, our schools, and taking American jobs? That cost alone is more than 22 billion dollars

You mentioned more people are coming here via Visa overstays and while that is a problem it's completely different and solvable in a different manner. To fly into the country one needs to get through customs. Secondly to get a Visa one needs to apply and it's a lengthy process. It's a much more lengthy process then crossing the border by foot. It's not just as easy as well hey you know what I'll just fly into the usa because there's a wall now.

The wall is only being built to stop the foot traffic from coming in. Besides the wall, which wouldn't be the only line of defense, we would need much stricter rules on what we do when illegals are caught by foot and by air, boat, etc. Whether that's jail time, deportation, or we just airlift them and drop them into North Korea for all I care, there needs to be a stiff penalty to make it less likely again based on human nature that people would want to even attempt to come into this country illegally. A a strong e-verify program with enormous fines and penalties on employers that hire illegals would also be a great thing to deter people from thinking they can get a job here in the United States if they cross the border illegally.

?It's not just the wall. The wall, fence, whatever you want to call it is just a small part of the overall program to reduce illegal immigrants from coming to this country. Bringing this Back To Human Nature, just look how many less illegals are trying to get into the country now that Trump is just simply talking a big game. A wall is more than just talking a wall is a quite a deterrent.
1. If people already get into the country, they will not be scared by a wall. There are airplanes. There are tunnels.
2. I disagree with your estimate. Let's say 1 million people are crossing the border. Let's say that the wall would scare away 10% of them (A HIGH estimate considering that just crossing the border is not the main use of getting away.) Let's say that an additional 10% would be caught. (Again, high estimate). So the wall would prevent, at most, 200,000 illegals. 2 mill each 10 years. Is that really enough? Remember, 22 mil is MORE THAN NASA'S BUDGET. Imagine the educational, scientific, medical advances we could use with that wasted money! War is expensive. We would use the money on the things I have just listed and benefit all people!
3. The problem is that people legally apply for VISAs then overstay them. You can't just ban all mexicans from legally entering the country, which is the only way to stop that. If I wanted to illegally cross the border, I REALLY don't want to stay in Mexico. I don't think it is a stretch to say that desperate families would turn to the easier, safer way of crossing the border. It really is that easy.
4. Remember that 1/30 americans are illegal immigrants. This would cause massive fear among citizens and destroy the economy IMO. It would also be a PR disaster. Foot traffic makes up a small portion of border crossings.
5. It won't stop the 'big issue' though. IMO it just is not worth the investment to divide the people for, by my calculations, at MAX, 200,000 people per year. We already have lots of border control.
1) Airplanes? How would one ILLEGALLY get into the country on an airplane?

2) would you rather rob fort knox or a bank? A bank, because it's less risky. If getting into the US is more risky than going to another country illegally then less people will do it. Humane Nature. The wall is only one of the impending challenges to come here illegally. Right now walking into this country isn't much of a challenge.

3) 40% of the problem is visa overstays (http://www.politifact.com/punditfact/statements/2015/sep/08/jorge-ramos/ramos-40-undocumented-immigrants-come-air/). Clearly this is not addressed via the wall. A simple solution to reduce visa overstays would be to reduce the number of visas issued. That's not THAT hard. Trump's already doing that. Also, it's not just Mexicans crossing the border, many are from Central and South America just passing through Mexico. Maybe a wall keeps them in Mexico, and not the USA.

4) I don't believe in doomsday scenarios... You might as well tell me Y2K or the end of the Mayan calendar will be the end of the planet... Or that Trump will be the death of the s&p if he's elected. There's no proof of any of what you said is true here and a wall is only stopping NEW illegals from coming to the US and for repeat deportees from coming back.

5) I don't know what the big issue is. Seriously 22 billion is a drop in the bucket for this country. We probably spend that for 3-4 new fighter jets.
1. They LEGALLY get a visa, come in on an airplane, and overstay their VISAs. That is the most common form of illegal immigration to the USA.
2. We already have a fence through most, and INTENSE border security. A wall won't do much more than we already do.
3. VISA OVERSTAYS ARE THROUGH AIRPLANES... How would you reduce VISA's issued while still being fail? You are pointing out the flaws in your own argument. There are other ways to tackle illegals without an expensive and useless wall.
4. If 1/30 of americans got deported I believe it would cause a market collapse... It is not as simple as deporting everyone. And you pointed out another problem with the wall, which is that it stops circular flow.
5. Again, 22 billion is more than NASA's budget. We could fix our education system with that budget. We could, you know, also cut the military in half, because we spend WAYYYY too much on it, as you have mentioned, but 22 billion can be used for something other than a pointless wall.
1) Lol... well if they are legally obtaining visas to take a plane into the USA instead of trying to climb over a wall then the wall IS WORKING. Now we have only one primary way that illegals are entering the country.
2) Putting a fence around a quarter of a yard doesn't do ****.... putting a fence around a quarter of the southern border also doesn't do ****. Easy concept.
3) Illegals are coming in the country on two fronts, visa overstays and the southern border. Both need to be addressed. The wall addresses the southern border. An alternative approach would be needed to tackle visa overstays.
4) A wall has nothing to do with deportations. That's decided by policy from congress and the white house. Is the circular flow you are referring to like how that illegal immigrant crossed the southern border seven times before murdering Kate Steinle?
5) There's a lot of estimates out there saying it will only cost around $15 billion. The US collects $3.7 TRILLION in annual taxes... spending $15-22 billion is a pittance compared to that. If fences were pointless then why does the white house have a fence around it and why did obama make that fence higher?
1. Uh..... They have been doing that.... You know that the wall doesn't exist yet, right? This has been the case for a long time.
2. Uhhhh we have the most secured border between two nations at peace.
3. Again, the southern border is a small percentage of border crossings.
4. That's a singular example. My point was that a wall would keep illegals IN.
5. Because the risk on the white house and the risk on the southern border are two different things. Duh. We are in a ton of debt right now. Our deficit is greater than our revenue. 22 bil is a TON of money on anything but our obscene military. 22 billion dollars is about the same as NASA's budget.

my solution: Don't build the wall. If you want, you could increase border security by adding detection systems and other tech... Cut the military budget significantly... Try an alternative solution for VISA overstays.... Try to make immigrants not want to come in the first place, by making Mexico more appealing... Reform education and healthcare systems.... Resr of the money goes to science.
10/24/2017 9:07 AM
Posted by The Taint on 10/23/2017 7:20:00 PM (view original):
People throw their kids in row boats and try to reach our shores from Cuba in raging storms....they trek all the way from Central America, across Mexico with their kids...you think a fence is going to stop them because it's against human nature? Human nature is to protect our offspring at any cost.
EXACTLY! THAT'S WHY WE BUILD THE WALL!
10/24/2017 10:12 AM
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