Quote: Originally Posted By cbear81 on 1/26/2010
I'm sure WIS expected there would be second divisions by this point. [that's probably true]

I'd have a very hard time believing they expected season eight (much less season ten) to roll around without second divisions anywhere in sight, [Actually, there are some Division 2's already, and honestly we don't know if any more are just around the corner or not. You're just assuming the glass is half full.] considering the game was designed for player talent level, season payout and game revenue to plateau at the tenth season. [We don't know that about talent level. Actually, I believe we are not yet too close to the end game talent levels] If there were 50 levels, we'd be in good shape still. But there's ten. In a few weeks we'll be at level nine.

I believe Norbert said way back, probably around season one, that the new teams created when you sign up are essentially amateur level teams. Most leagues are [eventually] to reach what to FCD is level of the Premier League. [actually, Division 1 of four divisions]

Yes, cbear, it certainly could be that new teams will have an easier time of it when there are three or four divisions than they do starting in the 1st division. However, they have a chance to compete for the top within a reasonable number of seasons even now, what with fewer teams to leapfrog over and 1st division payouts right from the start. I still do not believe the sky is falling, although we see a few posts to that effect now and then.

Hey guys, I'm still on the waiting list so I'm technically not even "new" yet. Bear with me if I am totally off-base with my comments...HBD seems to have a similar structure as FCD (the way you say it is now), in that all teams play at the same level. Good or bad, you play them all. Only thing is that in HBD there are almost always other teams that are close to yours talent wise. You may not win championships, but you can compete with several of the teams. GD has multiple levels and FCD is designed that way. Biggest difference I see here is that in GD, you can choose to move up levels as you progress. Here, it seems you are locked into the lower division whether you want to be or not. GD can have many Sim teams in a level but at least you can beat them and win a few games without becoming totally disillusioned by constant beatings with no hope of winning....Maybe it would serve the game better to allow more Sim teams at lower divisions and let the experienced owners move up if they choose. Sims being replaced by new owners as they joined, eventually eliminating most or all of those.

I have noticed that in the last several days there have been quite a few new owners join the game. About a week ago there were only 2000 owners and now there are 2070. I know that this is not a big number but it is a 3.5% increase in just a week. Maybe we are starting to see that influx of new people to the game WIS was looking for. If this keeps up it appears some of the things we have been looking for i.e. second divisions may start showing up.

Just my two cents.

Quote: Originally posted by pajamainc on 1/26/2010I have noticed that in the last several days there have been quite a few new owners join the game.  About a week ago there were only 2000 owners and now there are 2070.  I know that this is not a big number but it is a 3.5% increase in just a week.  Maybe we are starting to see that influx of new people to the game WIS was looking for.  If this keeps up it appears some of the things we have been looking for i.e. second divisions may start showing up.Just my two cents.

Pardon my pessimism, pajamainc (and excuse the alliteration) - but the only reason FCD has swelled in owners recently is because worlds 59-70 are all just two weeks away from rolling over. Each of those 12 worlds have three countries (plus a fourth country in world 63), giving a minimum of 37 leagues that will be losing owners (I don't know which of them have second divisions).

Say the conservative estimate is a 2.5 average for owners lost per league when those countries rollover (I usually see a minimum of three owners drop per rollover). That's roughly 92 lost owners. Then worlds 71-84 roll over a week after that... then worlds 85-92 follow a week or so after that. come mid-to-late February, the user pool will be back down near 1900-1950, a level it's been floating at for months.

The game has a cyclical existence when it comes to owner participation. When the first worlds are closing in on a rollover to a new season, the game will be at its highest for users. When all those words reach week 11 of the new season after the rollover, that user pool bottoms out.

I hope I'm wrong this time around... but I'm not holding my breath.

I hear what you are saying Jimnei, and you are probably right, it has been a while since worlds have rolled over. Only a couple in the last week or so.

We will just have to wait and see what happens.

Quote: Originally posted by jimnei on 1/27/2010

Quote: Originally posted by pajamainc on 1/26/2010I have noticed that in the last several days there have been quite a few new owners join the game.  About a week ago there were only 2000 owners and now there are 2070.  I know that this is not a big number but it is a 3.5% increase in just a week.  Maybe we are starting to see that influx of new people to the game WIS was looking for.  If this keeps up it appears some of the things we have been looking for i.e. second divisions may start showing up.Just my two cents.

Pardon my pessimism, pajamainc (and excuse the alliteration) - but the only reason FCD has swelled in owners recently is because worlds 59-70 are all just two weeks away from rolling over. Each of those 12 worlds have three countries (plus a fourth country in world 63), giving a minimum of 37 leagues that will be losing owners (I don't know which of them have second divisions).

Say the conservative estimate is a 2.5 average for owners lost per league when those countries rollover (I usually see a minimum of three owners drop per rollover). That's roughly 92 lost owners. Then worlds 71-84 roll over a week after that... then worlds 85-92 follow a week or so after that. come mid-to-late February, the user pool will be back down near 1900-1950, a level it's been floating at for months.

The game has a cyclical existence when it comes to owner participation. When the first worlds are closing in on a rollover to a new season, the game will be at its highest for users. When all those words reach week 11 of the new season after the rollover, that user pool bottoms out.

I hope I'm wrong this time around... but I'm not holding my breath.

You managed to explain how to new joined players system is working, Unfortunately the first worlds accumulating all the new owners, as I said it somewhere above, the best what they can do is to wait for 20 players for nation, when they got them waiting to create second league in the nearest rollover world. I prefer to play 1 season with 5 sim controlled team and next one to see 5 teams with stadiums and squads ready to be competitive.

World 87 just rolled into season 8. This is my third season, and for the first time we are going to have Sim teams. Specifically, 3 in Germany, plus 2 new teams, so 5 teams were abandoned and only two people were on the waiting list for Germany despite the fact that no Germany World had rolled in 30 days. Another player has indicated that he is abandoning his team for this seaon.

The sky is not falling, but it is disheartening.

On the plus side, I forsee a nice jump up in competitiveness for my squad this year.

gjello10 - I'm in 87 too (Leicester United, England), and our world lost five owners. We got 5 new teams to cover for it, but that's the most teams we've lost in a rollover since the first couple of seasons. Do you know the situation in USA? I'd bet it's pretty similar.

Quote: Originally Posted By snake_p on 1/25/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By shoeless joe on 1/25/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By cosborn on 1/23/2010

And BTW - there are numerous owners in all three of my current leagues as frustrated with the game as me. And NONE of the issues now cropping up were that hard to predict. With established teams having large stadiums, set squads, and new teams starting EXACTLY as they did in season 1, what did anyone with a clue think might happen? Competitive balance? I hope not, because if that's true, there is a much deeper problem here than an ill conceived "fix" and poor marketing.

I find it hard to see how one can argue with this. A team started in season 1 has a nearly insurmountable advantage over a team started in season 7. Yes, one can read the forums, but there is contradictory information in the forums. And the quality of advice varies. A newbie can't be expected to discern which advice to follow without having played a few seasons.

Yes, a seasoned player could take a new team and make them competitive in a few seasons. But only because they have experience in what works. I've read that this game is a money management game and the best teams are the ones that balance spending on salaries, stadium and scouting the best. Finding this balance is not something that comes easily. It takes trial and error. Add to this the distinct disadvantage that a new team starts with a stadium of 5000 when most stadiums in an established league will exceed 20,000 and maybe 30,000. A newbie just can't keep up with the revenue available to established teams.

It seems disingenous to argue that new teams entering established leagues aren't at a signficant disadvantage. And yes, a good game player who diligently researches the forums might be able to build a competitive team. But how long will it take? How long does someone endure 12-0 beatings or frustration of being outbid on free agents because they can't generate the same revenue that teams with 30,000 seat stadiums do?

Well, this is essentially the same predicament a new coach finds himself in in GD ... and HD ... and HBD ... and presumably the auto racing game ... more knowledgeable coaches with bigger budgets and better starting points each season, and untrustworthy advice in the forums.. Therefore, I also find it hard to argue with this.

And since new coaches grow up to win National Championships in GD ... and HD ... and HBD ... and presumably the auto racing game, I would predict the same will happen in FCD. In fact, I believe that every NC winner in each of those games started out as a new owner at some point. And you will find it hard to argue with that.

That's just not true, Snake. In HBD, you take over someone else's team that they've been working on. In 95% of cases, there are SOME pieces in place that you can use, either in the majors or the minors. Also, you get to look at the available teams before you select one, so you know what you're getting.

In GD, you also take over an existing programs, one that has either been run by another coach or the Sim, but which has some base of talent to build upon. And you get to see what situation you're getting yourself into.

In FCD, you start with, essesntially, nothing usable at all. That's an enormous material difference. Going 5-9-24 with a -50 goal difference is not comparable to a typical 1st season experience in the other games.

I would add that, in HBD, with the draft, IFAs, minor league seasons and playoffs, there is a lot more going on to keep your attention if you do end up with an uncompetitive team in season one. In FCD, all there is to do is check in daily to spend yesterday's revenue on stadium, and then wait until the next season's Free Agency. In GD a 1st year coach is learning complex gameplanning. There's very little to be learned in this game about formations by constant 4-1 butt kickings during season one.

Quote: Originally Posted By jimnei on 1/27/2010gjello10 - I'm in 87 too (Leicester United, England), and our world lost five owners. We got 5 new teams to cover for it, but that's the most teams we've lost in a rollover since the first couple of seasons. Do you know the situation in USA? I'd bet it's pretty similar

There are no Sims, but I didn't check to see how many new teams in USA.

Quote: Originally Posted By gjello10 on 1/27/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By jimnei on 1/27/2010
gjello10 - I'm in 87 too (Leicester United, England), and our world lost five owners. We got 5 new teams to cover for it, but that's the most teams we've lost in a rollover since the first couple of seasons. Do you know the situation in USA? I'd bet it's pretty similar.

There are no Sims, but I didn't check to see how many new teams in USA

USA appears to have lost 6. So 16 of 60 owners in the World lost this season, with only 13 replacements.

Quote: Originally posted by gjello10 on 1/27/2010There are no Sims, but I didn't check to see how many new teams in USA.

Just looked: SEVEN new teams. Yikes.

The fact that Germany now has a 0 waiting list is a bit disturbing. In the past 30 days, only 2 people joined the Germany waiting list. In the next 22 days, the other 4 Germany Worlds all roll.

When I signed up 100 days ago, there were 89 Germany teams in the 5 Worlds plus another 8-10 on the waiting list. Now there are 79 Germany teams and none on the waiting list. After those 4 Worlds roll, there could easily be 60 teams .

And this is despite what I would imagine is an uptick in alias creation, due to the Season 8 payout changes and many owners feeling that it gave an advantage to new teams.

Quote: Originally posted by pajamainc on 1/27/2010I hear what you are saying Jimnei, and you are probably right, it has been a while since worlds have rolled over.  Only a couple in the last week or so.  We will just have to wait and see what happens.

Overnight results are not good:

2075 users late last night.
2058 users this morning.
1 world rolled over.

Quote: Originally Posted By jimnei on 1/27/2010

Quote: Originally posted by pajamainc on 1/27/2010
I hear what you are saying Jimnei, and you are probably right, it has been a while since worlds have rolled over. Only a couple in the last week or so.

We will just have to wait and see what happens.

Overnight results are not good:

2075 users late last night.
2058 users this morning.
1 world rolled over

1 World with 3 countries, and a good group of long time owners.