Starting second divisions? - Page 5 - FC Dynasty

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Snake I got your point about freedom, but don't want to play in league with 19 "learn to play" owners and killing them with 10-0, I think that you manage to hit 13-0 this season, that is not fun for me, I am not going to make topic the biggest win against new team and show how powerful I am.

If they aren't going to start creating d2 and server controlled tournaments every season there will be few good managers leaving and few not so good coming.

Other thing is that we can create new teams in some empty world and than I will be sure that other 19 owners not planing to stop playing the game tomorrow.

1/22/2010 12:55 PM

snake_p

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Quote: Originally Posted By systemhalter on 1/22/2010Snake I got your point about freedom, but don't want to play in league with 19 "learn to play" owners and killing them with 10-0, I think that you manage to hit 13-0 this season, that is not fun for me, I am not going to make topic the biggest win against new team and show how powerful I am.

Totally agree. I am with the rest of the people who hope we get more users, preferably from outside North America, sooner rather than later.

1/22/2010 2:15 PM

rufusjonz

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Quote: Originally posted by FW_Kekionga on 1/16/2010FWIW, I hope that 2nd divisions are implemented sooner rather than later, even for worlds that aren't full with human owners. It's getting to the point that teams that have been around since season one are routinely thrashing the new guys with scores of 14-2 or 9-1, or worse. It isn't fair to the new or old owners to have to deal with that kind of game, it isn't competitive and probably isn't fun for the new guys we are trying to keep interested in the game.

With a 2nd division you would have an opportunity to get your team up to par, and a sense of accomplishment for advancement to the top tier. I do realize it is possible to make a new team and have it be a top club in two-three seasons, I have done it myself in several leagues, but I know what I am doing. But it is getting increasingly difficult and the talent gap will only become more apparent after season 10 with the maxed out free agents.

Since there is already a league or two out there with 2 divisions, I don't see this as being a horribly difficult update to implement either, as the framework and coding should already be in place to make it happen. Just my two cents.

NORBERT - listen to this and implement -- seriously -- consolidate worlds, or just turn the 4 damn "countries" into 2 leagues of 2 divisions each

1/22/2010 9:22 PM

cosborn

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15 games into season 8 in one world. 2 teams - 0 wins. One of them 3 goals scored. Want to place odds on those two owners returning? I'm seeing a LOT of 10-1, 6-0 scores routinely run up against the new teams. There is simply too big a gulf in the talent built up by existing teams at this point in the game to continue like this. Worlds need to be consolidated ASAP.

1/22/2010 10:31 PM

snake_p

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Quote: Originally Posted By norbert on 1/18/2010
Just to clarify something - the game already supports multiple divisions within a league, up to 4 to be exact. The problem is getting new users to make those divisions happen. We don't want a bunch of divisions with AI clubs. That would have it's own problems. It is still being worked out to get more advertising and real estate on sites (not just a link in a menu) and it's obviously not moving as fast as any of us would like. If we get more users joining, it will help get the worlds full, but there are still some problems we need to address on how the worlds are spaced out and how they pull in new users. I hope we can address some of those this year and at that point we may look at how to consolidate worlds if the new users still look like they are at the pace they are now. The process of consolidating will be pretty ugly and will mess with some world schedules, so it's not something I want to just throw at the game and the users. But at this point, it may be something we have to do later in the year.

For all the strident impatience that has beset a few users, I still think Norbert's post says it best.

Truthfully, I would hate to see the vision for this game, its full potential, chopped in half because a few people are impatient.

1/22/2010 11:06 PM

cosborn

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What vision? People are not being impatient. Far from it. The game is 8+ seasons old, and the marketing has been dreadful. There simply are not enough new users coming to the game to make it work. In its current form, there is no real potential for the game. None. Zip. Nada. Something needs to be done to shake it up. Norbert himself even admits "It [consolidation] may be something we have to do later in the year." D'oh! Ya' think? My question is - why wait?

And BTW - there are numerous owners in all three of my current leagues as frustrated with the game as me. And NONE of the issues now cropping up were that hard to predict. With established teams having large stadiums, set squads, and new teams starting EXACTLY as they did in season 1, what did anyone with a clue think might happen? Competitive balance? I hope not, because if that's true, there is a much deeper problem here than an ill conceived "fix" and poor marketing.

I'd love for WIS to get this fixed and moving. The other games here are very, very good. No reason this can't be as good. But they really need to step back, recognize the problems, and implement MAJOR revisions such as far improved PBP, stat records, etc. But the developers also must admit the failure of the current marketing efforts, bite the bullet and consolidate worlds, and then maybe the game will develop some legs.

So I am not impatient. Maybe a bit demanding - so? Deal with it, but if you (WIS) aren't willing to put a product in the market that is at or near the same quality as other products from the same company - get out. I plan to finish my three leagues. And - frankly - if a plan with DATE commitments to get this thing right isn't announced. I will not return. I enjoy futbol too much to stick around and waste my time here when the developers don't seem interested in real improvements. There are far superior products on the market. Would I like for this to be a better experience? Yes. I hope they get it going. 8 seasons of "beta" is enough. Time to get the game moving toward the "vision" (ill-defined as it is) some users seem the believe is out there.

Sorry of I seem a bit put out. Frankly - I am. The incessant apologists for poor development, lousy marketing accusing users with a true desire for improvement as being "impatient" is tiresome and boring. Get over it. If the game isn't truly moving forward in the next few weeks, it won't be an issue with many of us, because we will simply be gone.

1/23/2010 9:46 AM

snake_p

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'bye.

HBD, HD and GD are all getting updates, including supposedly a whole new engine in GD. You go ahead and tell WIS that you want that all set aside so they can alter FCD to your liking. My guess is that they'll think you are being a little impatient, eh?

1/23/2010 11:07 AM

jimnei

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1/24/2010 3:48 PM

shoeless joe

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Quote: Originally Posted By cosborn on 1/22/201015 games into season 8 in one world. 2 teams - 0 wins. One of them 3 goals scored. Want to place odds on those two owners returning? I'm seeing a LOT of 10-1, 6-0 scores routinely run up against the new teams. There is simply too big a gulf in the talent built up by existing teams at this point in the game to continue like this. Worlds need to be consolidated ASAP

Actually, I'd ask what are the odds that those owners haven't already abandoned their teams?

1/25/2010 9:15 PM

shoeless joe

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Quote: Originally Posted By cosborn on 1/23/2010
And BTW - there are numerous owners in all three of my current leagues as frustrated with the game as me. And NONE of the issues now cropping up were that hard to predict. With established teams having large stadiums, set squads, and new teams starting EXACTLY as they did in season 1, what did anyone with a clue think might happen? Competitive balance? I hope not, because if that's true, there is a much deeper problem here than an ill conceived "fix" and poor marketing.

I find it hard to see how one can argue with this. A team started in season 1 has a nearly insurmountable advantage over a team started in season 7. Yes, one can read the forums, but there is contradictory information in the forums. And the quality of advice varies. A newbie can't be expected to discern which advice to follow without having played a few seasons.

Yes, a seasoned player could take a new team and make them competitive in a few seasons. But only because they have experience in what works. I've read that this game is a money management game and the best teams are the ones that balance spending on salaries, stadium and scouting the best. Finding this balance is not something that comes easily. It takes trial and error. Add to this the distinct disadvantage that a new team starts with a stadium of 5000 when most stadiums in an established league will exceed 20,000 and maybe 30,000. A newbie just can't keep up with the revenue available to established teams.

It seems disingenous to argue that new teams entering established leagues aren't at a signficant disadvantage. And yes, a good game player who diligently researches the forums might be able to build a competitive team. But how long will it take? How long does someone endure 12-0 beatings or frustration of being outbid on free agents because they can't generate the same revenue that teams with 30,000 seat stadiums do?

1/25/2010 9:35 PM

systemhalter

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Joe, I started my 2nd alt team in world with 30 owners in 4 countries, the 60-64 fa pricing was really good. At week 28 my team is 9-1-6 with 22.5k/11.5 stadium, I will build it up to 25/20 and start saving money for next season. But you are right,that I was planing everything, what to sign, how much to pay for, how much to save for pre-build.

The most disappointing thing is to see someone signing 56 overall player for 5x600k contract. Not sure how but half from new owners managing to screw up their team so badly that is becoming pointless to keep playing it.

1/25/2010 10:10 PM

snake_p

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Quote: Originally Posted By shoeless joe on 1/25/2010

Quote: Originally Posted By cosborn on 1/23/2010

And BTW - there are numerous owners in all three of my current leagues as frustrated with the game as me. And NONE of the issues now cropping up were that hard to predict. With established teams having large stadiums, set squads, and new teams starting EXACTLY as they did in season 1, what did anyone with a clue think might happen? Competitive balance? I hope not, because if that's true, there is a much deeper problem here than an ill conceived "fix" and poor marketing.

I find it hard to see how one can argue with this. A team started in season 1 has a nearly insurmountable advantage over a team started in season 7. Yes, one can read the forums, but there is contradictory information in the forums. And the quality of advice varies. A newbie can't be expected to discern which advice to follow without having played a few seasons.

Yes, a seasoned player could take a new team and make them competitive in a few seasons. But only because they have experience in what works. I've read that this game is a money management game and the best teams are the ones that balance spending on salaries, stadium and scouting the best. Finding this balance is not something that comes easily. It takes trial and error. Add to this the distinct disadvantage that a new team starts with a stadium of 5000 when most stadiums in an established league will exceed 20,000 and maybe 30,000. A newbie just can't keep up with the revenue available to established teams.

It seems disingenous to argue that new teams entering established leagues aren't at a signficant disadvantage. And yes, a good game player who diligently researches the forums might be able to build a competitive team. But how long will it take? How long does someone endure 12-0 beatings or frustration of being outbid on free agents because they can't generate the same revenue that teams with 30,000 seat stadiums do?

Well, this is essentially the same predicament a new coach finds himself in in GD ... and HD ... and HBD ... and presumably the auto racing game ... more knowledgeable coaches with bigger budgets and better starting points each season, and untrustworthy advice in the forums.. Therefore, I also find it hard to argue with this.

And since new coaches grow up to win National Championships in GD ... and HD ... and HBD ... and presumably the auto racing game, I would predict the same will happen in FCD. In fact, I believe that every NC winner in each of those games started out as a new owner at some point. And you will find it hard to argue with that.

1/25/2010 10:55 PM

cbear81

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I'm sure WIS expected there would be second divisions by this point. The fact is that when the game came out of beta, there were like 3400-3500 teams registered (total; I'd bet a significant amount were not on the wait list). I think at one point it surpassed 4000, but I can't recall for certain. So they created all these worlds to place so many teams... and then when the 60-day dead team removal came along, it wiped out about half of the teams in the entire game within a matter of weeks. Kinda like the Black Death only without all the decomposing skin and vomiting of blood.

As it's a free game, anyone could make a team (or several), making it inevitable that many teams would be abandoned, often before the season even started. It's not like it cost them anything. The only time I ever saw a team with a dead owner from the start in Hoops Dynasty was when they were offering free seasons to new users.

Now we're stuck with twice as many worlds as are needed. I'd have a very hard time believing they expected season eight (much less season ten) to roll around without second divisions anywhere in sight, considering the game was designed for player talent level, season payout and game revenue to plateau at the tenth season. If there were 50 levels, we'd be in good shape still. But there's ten. In a few weeks we'll be at level nine.

I believe Norbert said way back, probably around season one, that the new teams created when you sign up are essentially amateur level teams. Most leagues are soon to reach what to FCD is level of the Premier League. Amateur teams should not be entering these leagues. Which is a pitfall the game was designed to avoid, in the form of lower leagues. But since they created so many worlds to fulfill the demand of an inflated initial userbase, this has not happened.

1/26/2010 2:24 AM

shoeless joe

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Quote: Originally Posted By snake_p on 1/25/2010
Well, this is essentially the same predicament a new coach finds himself in in GD ... and HD ... and HBD ... and presumably the auto racing game ... more knowledgeable coaches with bigger budgets and better starting points each season, and untrustworthy advice in the forums.. Therefore, I also find it hard to argue with this.

And since new coaches grow up to win National Championships in GD ... and HD ... and HBD ... and presumably the auto racing game, I would predict the same will happen in FCD. In fact, I believe that every NC winner in each of those games started out as a new owner at some point. And you will find it hard to argue with that.

Snake, I have no experience with HBD or auto racing. But I do know that in GD and HD a new "coach" starts at the bottom and is not thrown into D-I until he has earned his way through promotions. So, in that respect, I think you are making the case that 2nd divisions are needed ASAP.

1/26/2010 6:52 AM

netface

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Quote: Originally Posted By shoeless joe on 1/26/2010Snake, I have no experience with HBD or auto racing. But I do know that in GD and HD a new "coach" starts at the bottom and is not thrown into D-I until he has earned his way through promotions. So, in that respect, I think you are making the case that 2nd divisions are needed ASAP

That's true you do start at the bottom division, but it's all relative. There are still DIII powerhouses that you can't compete with until you build your team, and you can't build your team correctly until you learn the game. The only subtle difference between FCD and GD (never have played HD) is that in GD there are some other bottom feeder teams that you can compete with. In FC Dynasty, if you are new you might not be able to compete with anybody at all.

1/26/2010 12:02 PM

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