The aspect of vision I have noticed is that although you can see players with a higher overall rating, they may not be the best rated player at any specific position. So vision helps see more players, but not necessarily better players.

Posted by the_dance07 on 4/1/2024 9:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by holdaway on 4/1/2024 8:02:00 PM (view original):
At the lower levels, just because a player is visible does not mean that they are better. They may have a higher rating, but that does not mean that they are a better player and if you do not understand this at the lower levels, you need to dig in to it. Imho

Not sure if this was in general or at me but that's literally my point in that he was a 58ish guess DL this is a guy that shouldnt even be in "top vision" rating wise, there were better players rating wise but guy was within 100 miles and had great WE, he was the fit I needed in that class at the time and UND for a while. I still scouted him anyways knowing I couldn't sign him to just see the POT, and few cycles in a lower ranked team grabbed him off the board which is what really lead to my shock and feelings that vision is made up by more factors than just success if he was visible to this guy who by all known vision calculation theory should have been less but I could not see him. The only thing that made sense to me is he was further away from this guy who had twice the schols vs a very easy cheap recruit to me close.

Sorry coach, not at you. I don’t think I even related my comment to your post tbh. I am more referring to the fact in general that some players attach quality to vision and that is not the case in my experience. Certainly, a recent NC can have better vision and an easier path to recruiting a player, but that does not mean that they see “better” players. I think that is my point of conversation.

Posted by 0bigzeke0 on 4/2/2024 12:33:00 AM (view original):
The aspect of vision I have noticed is that although you can see players with a higher overall rating, they may not be the best rated player at any specific position. So vision helps see more players, but not necessarily better players.

Yep nor does the best rated player mean the best available in terms of growth, etc.

Posted by bisonducks on 4/1/2024 11:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the_dance07 on 4/1/2024 10:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by CoachSpud on 4/1/2024 9:56:00 PM (view original):
Let’s look at some of the conversation here a little more closely.

“They're directly correlated … one isn’t going up without the other.” Correlated, yes, but that’s not the point. Vision is actually redundant, based on same measures as prestige, but adding the artificial boundary that absolutely prevents a team from trying to recruit a player that a team with just one more win can recruit, an artificial barrier that has no counterpart in real life and in GD serves as a rich-get-richer effect that damages the competitive balance of the game.

“The concept of prestige only occurs at the D1a level and has to do with the overall success of the conference with wins and now playoff success.” Yes, such an effect may exist. “the hard wired advantage of the different D1a levels (elites, BCS and mids)” And that most certainly exists. But those aren’t what we are talking about here. We are talking about the effect that the more wins, the better your prestige becomes and the better your prestige, the easier and less expensive it becomes to recruit better recruits. That effect is certainly present at levels other than D1A. Call it whatever you want, I’m just calling it prestige.

“At the lower levels, just because a player is visible does not mean that they are better.” Good point. The way recruits are ranked in GD is not an exact reflection of their real utility. That ranking doesn’t seem to take into account the greater importance of the “core” attributes in the way that most experienced coaches have learned to do. Also, a player that fits your system may not fit my system, and vice versa. However, we all recognize that there is at least some merit to the rankings. A #10 player is likely better than a #110 player, who in turn is likely better than a #210 player by any definition.

To better understand the problem with vision, consider two teams that are right at the top of the vision for their division. For three seasons they have identical W-L records, but in the fourth season one team wins one more game than the other. Do you think that team should (1) have an ever-so-slightly harder time recruiting a few the top recruits, or should (2) they suddenly be absolutely prevented from even trying to recruit those same few guys? Well, to me, since their record is now ever-so-slightly below the other team, it makes sense that they should have a slightly harder time recruiting those top few recruits, but not be magically prohibited altogether. In this scenario, (1) is prestige and (2) is vision. (1) makes perfect sense, but (2) makes no sense at all.

Edited to add: I see Dance has helped make my point -- should he have been PROHIBITED from signing that DL, or should the stronger team have just a bit of an edge based on their better prestige. Dance, how did you like being prohibited? Vision bit you in your nether regions.

While a lot of this I agree with in the first few paragraphs. What was missed was I was the stronger team...about 3 more wins in the last 4 seasons and the only one to make it to the 4th round or NC game during that span. Leading me to the conclusion that vision is not just about track record of the last 3-4 seasons and why I believe they are trying to tweak things to lower the pool and give unexplainable advantages to teams without being at the top of the prestige or vision of what we assumed it took to get there. Which is what I have a problem with and why I am wondering why the stronger team with a better track record significantly closer to the recruit no longer has that advantage now.

Can somebody help me understand vision? I read somewhere that with the Yatzr tool that you would max out at about 97% vision - the very elite coaches. So, to me that means even the best coaches don't see 3% of the pool. Everyone in this thread seems to think it's just the better players that show up in your vision as it improves. Since this is a random number game, I would assume that you just see more, and not necessarily all better.

Therefore, the example of a lesser coach seeing a good DL that better coach cannot is just random dumb luck.

Another cesspool of opinions..lol.

I will take a 40K foot stab at it for purposes of starting the snowball to hell. Based on a population matrix, a random number generator, and at least one more random number generator, a player pool is developed and distributed.

Based on the “Schools” not “coaches” recent success (most have agreed 4 seasons I believe although some believe older seasons may play a small part??) with more recent seasons being more heavily weighted a “vision” number is determined. Some pct of these players are visible to each school.There appears to be tiers and a few players, IMHO a very small number of say 10-15 (a guess) of players that are higher rated (overall or Guess type, nobody knows) are visible only to the upper tier of D3/D2 coaches for example with the assumption that each tier loses visibility as they decline in wins calc.

There are several old streams about this btw

Affter ten+ years of RL and playing this game, I try to win as many games as possible each season and recruit what I can see. I have found that “most” players are fungible. A few points here or a few points there is not as important as filling my roster with players that I WANT vs simAI or the wrong positions.

Glass house prepared for the incoming rocks…lol

Posted by holdaway on 4/2/2024 11:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by the_dance07 on 4/1/2024 9:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by holdaway on 4/1/2024 8:02:00 PM (view original):
At the lower levels, just because a player is visible does not mean that they are better. They may have a higher rating, but that does not mean that they are a better player and if you do not understand this at the lower levels, you need to dig in to it. Imho

Not sure if this was in general or at me but that's literally my point in that he was a 58ish guess DL this is a guy that shouldnt even be in "top vision" rating wise, there were better players rating wise but guy was within 100 miles and had great WE, he was the fit I needed in that class at the time and UND for a while. I still scouted him anyways knowing I couldn't sign him to just see the POT, and few cycles in a lower ranked team grabbed him off the board which is what really lead to my shock and feelings that vision is made up by more factors than just success if he was visible to this guy who by all known vision calculation theory should have been less but I could not see him. The only thing that made sense to me is he was further away from this guy who had twice the schols vs a very easy cheap recruit to me close.

Sorry coach, not at you. I don’t think I even related my comment to your post tbh. I am more referring to the fact in general that some players attach quality to vision and that is not the case in my experience. Certainly, a recent NC can have better vision and an easier path to recruiting a player, but that does not mean that they see “better” players. I think that is my point of conversation.

No worries wasnt sure. But I think your right in a lot of what you just posted here and below this reply. I think quality and pure numbers are two different things. I think finding top most QUALITY is pretty rare at max vision that maybe only 2-3 coaches can see, it does happen and that's always great when it does. But often times the top of the guys you can see vision wise are highest rating guess wise, but not the best quality recruit out there. It comes at a trade off. The highest rated players in basically every class will often be lower on WE if they are top most vision exclusive guys. You'll almost never see a OL rated 64+ with high WE at d2, but if you can only see OL under 560 total rating and there is a 483 that is a 64.2 Guess OL he likely is a low WE and he got kicked down into d2 vision. He might rate as the best OL via GUESS, but if he has a WE of 15 and Pot is anything less than H, I may rather go with a 60 GUESS OL that maybe more coaches can see but has a WE of 50+.

I find this is often the case due to the fact that vision is essentially just elevating how far you can see into the lower end of the division above your own. This is why often times when vision is so high you can end up recruiting an entire class of UND bc they are the low end of the division above you and dont get SIM coaches on them. There happen to be so few d1aa coaches and the player pool is so large that you almost never have a problem with d1aa dipping down on the top of the vision ladder at d2. At d1aa though when you take over a shitbox team you are nearly regulated to no high end UND and have to battle all d1aa sims. As that vision increases you can start to see the low tier d1a guys that are UND (not many outside of RB, TE, and LB anyways) and eventually when vision gets so good at d1aa its almost counter productive bc there are seasons that I could see like the second best rated OL in the entire country but have zero chance at signing bc obviously a d1a is going to be on him and you start to have to bob and weave to try to avoid the d1a schools while still trying to get d1a talent. This is what made d1aa my favorite recruiting division for a while but its often very difficult as a d1a can easily swoop in at any time.

Just completed my scouting of the first cycle in Rockne D2 and I assume I likely have some of the best vision in that world atm. I didn't see anything off at least in search vs guess recruit tool like some other recent seasons across worlds, however I think the overall ceiling that you can see up to has definitely been moved down. Almost never find a guess RB over 60-61 now vs 4-6 months ago where I wouldn't even scout RB's under 60, cant find a DB over 55-56 guess rating. And feel like its starting to become rare you can see a QB 49-50+ at d2. Could be random but it feels like a trend the last 3 seasons or so across my d2 teams. The only positions that doesn't feel like the ceiling was lowered at really OL and DL but possibly less common then before imo.

No worry holdaway, not throwing any rocks. I have great respect for how you play the game and being in the same D2 world for years matching up to your team was always difficult. I did get a win once. I understand the part where maybe the recruits which fall into the category found above the vision of most in a certain world may not be what some term as the highest quality. But I am not sure I agree with stating they are not a better recruit. I have seen a dominant player consistently recruit lower end WE recruits that fall within that very high vision. When you have recruits that have significant numbers pertaining to their position then WE may not be that important. I recently completed recruiting in which I saw my vision drop. I pre evaluated 34 OL prior to the season turnover. When the turnover happened 9 of those OL dropped out of my vision. Two of those linemen ended up on the reigning National Champion. Now those two were at the top of my list. I would have had some advantage to recruiting each of those two but that is not to say I would have won the battle for either. Point is I did not have the opportunity and the National Champion certainly saw them as high quality recruits to be on his team. I also had 5 recruits that I rated highly but were no longer in my vision end up never being recruited. The recruiting period ended, and they just disappeared. One even had a VH rating with good DB numbers. Again, I had no opportunity to sign him which would have been much better than what I ended up with. I have a hard time believing everyone does not see this as a big advantage, but I do understand why many do not want to see this go away. When this post was initially started I did send a ticket to WIS asking they follow the replies. Basically their response was this was not even on the radar and did not see addressing this any time in the near future. So, for those who like this aspect of the game it will continue.

Why do coaches still complain about this, especially experienced coaches? They have made absolutely no secrets about the formula to improve vision in this game....JUST WIN BABY! That's it, that's all you have to do! You want to see the upper echelon of recruits, then get easy wins until you can challenge the big dogs! Simple as that! It's not rocket science! For the record I agree with Holdaway, just because you can see what some consider to be higher recruits it doesn't mean they are better! I've seen a 60th ranked recruit have better cores and be an overall better recruit than a top 15 recruit. Maybe that's where you guys are lacking is in the perception of what a truly good recruit looks like?!

Posted by herculoids on 4/3/2024 4:29:00 PM (view original):
Why do coaches still complain about this, especially experienced coaches? They have made absolutely no secrets about the formula to improve vision in this game....JUST WIN BABY! That's it, that's all you have to do! You want to see the upper echelon of recruits, then get easy wins until you can challenge the big dogs! Simple as that! It's not rocket science! For the record I agree with Holdaway, just because you can see what some consider to be higher recruits it doesn't mean they are better! I've seen a 60th ranked recruit have better cores and be an overall better recruit than a top 15 recruit. Maybe that's where you guys are lacking is in the perception of what a truly good recruit looks like?!

Right. You have to subordinate everything to wins. There are conferences with only SIM AIs in these worlds, so it is easier than ever.

Posted by 0bigzeke0 on 4/2/2024 12:33:00 AM (view original):
The aspect of vision I have noticed is that although you can see players with a higher overall rating, they may not be the best rated player at any specific position. So vision helps see more players, but not necessarily better players.

My feelings

Posted by ranger1951 on 4/3/2024 11:13:00 AM (view original):
No worry holdaway, not throwing any rocks. I have great respect for how you play the game and being in the same D2 world for years matching up to your team was always difficult. I did get a win once. I understand the part where maybe the recruits which fall into the category found above the vision of most in a certain world may not be what some term as the highest quality. But I am not sure I agree with stating they are not a better recruit. I have seen a dominant player consistently recruit lower end WE recruits that fall within that very high vision. When you have recruits that have significant numbers pertaining to their position then WE may not be that important. I recently completed recruiting in which I saw my vision drop. I pre evaluated 34 OL prior to the season turnover. When the turnover happened 9 of those OL dropped out of my vision. Two of those linemen ended up on the reigning National Champion. Now those two were at the top of my list. I would have had some advantage to recruiting each of those two but that is not to say I would have won the battle for either. Point is I did not have the opportunity and the National Champion certainly saw them as high quality recruits to be on his team. I also had 5 recruits that I rated highly but were no longer in my vision end up never being recruited. The recruiting period ended, and they just disappeared. One even had a VH rating with good DB numbers. Again, I had no opportunity to sign him which would have been much better than what I ended up with. I have a hard time believing everyone does not see this as a big advantage, but I do understand why many do not want to see this go away. When this post was initially started I did send a ticket to WIS asking they follow the replies. Basically their response was this was not even on the radar and did not see addressing this any time in the near future. So, for those who like this aspect of the game it will continue.

I hear you. I think there are many ways to “skin the cat” in this game. I like a certain WE, STR, etc depending on position based on experience/results. Much like a practice or gameplan or off formation or def formation, it can be different and yet, successful. I believe some paths are easier though for sure!