Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 8:28:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/29/2018 11:48:00 AM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/29/2018 10:23:00 AM (view original):
Answer my question. There is racism everywhere as there is anti semitism but I believe it is a lot less now than it was in the 60s? Again how does a racist in Boston impact a lady in Boston deciding to become a single mom? Forget the race. We need to educate kids that being a single parent is likely going to cause them and their child to start behind the 8 Ball and be at a disadvantage. I NEVER hear anyone talk about that sans Ben Shapiro.

I will step in and take a shot.

You are missing the point. The point isn't that individual racist people are racist and those people negatively affect black people. The point is that longstanding institutional practices like slavery, Jim Crow, and redlining still have discernible effects on the black populace, with the generational wealth and everything. You are correct that individual people are making bad choices and that we need to make attempts to fix that, but if you believe that just fixing the single parent problem will close the race gap then you would be naive and incorrect. BL, Taint, Wylie, Bob, and I have all proved that even with all other things equal, black people are still at a disadvantage, due to generational wealth, redlining, justice/police systems, and that we hold the poor in general in this country down. You even agreed on this. There is more nuance in this issue than one side or the other, all black people succeeding or all black people failing. If you keep resorting to hyperbole, you will never get the point.

You have proven nothing. I have proven that single parenthood is the #1 problem period.

I have proved 100% that all your theories are false.

There, I answered you.

What? You already agreed with me on this. Why are you going back on your opinions? BL showed you the stats. You agreed that the poor are at a disadvantage, that the justice system is flawed, and that generational wealth is a factor. So that's institutional racism.

In fact, you are STILL missing the point by continuing to push the broken record that is single parenthood. We can address that as well, but both things are problems. Just because one may be a bigger problem than another doesn't mean that there isn't a problem at all.

Posted by bad_luck on 5/30/2018 11:23:00 AM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 5/30/2018 11:19:00 AM (view original):
Could it possibly be that the difference in average earnings between the two races have to do with the number of people that have college degrees? Don't let logic get in the way, B_L. I've already proven to you that the wage gap narrows drastically when comparing blacks and whites with college degrees. Remember, black women with degrees actually make more than white women with degrees. Once again, I would hate for logic to get in the way for you.

Hmmm I wonder if racism could play a role in someone's access to college?

That depends on the school. Do you want me to list the racist institutions again? You see, some of the problem is that the same white people championing the idea of racism are the racists themselves.

Tangy. Let it go. The FACT that Boris wants to consciously claim that blacks don't STILL suffer/face institutional racism is HIS willful ignorance and HE has the right to choose to (sort of) bury his head to it. And, he is right, things are improving in MANY areas and regions of the Country.

But, you are right within your knowledge and certainty about the sad but continuing presence of racism's subtle practice......... in MANY areas of society.
Access to schooling is a big one (also affected by poverty as Boris points out)
But, also, in areas such as access to credit. Or higher car loan rates based on color which has just been publicly aired and re-printed in newspapers around the Country.
Or redlining, yes it's illegal, but is still subtly persists in many metro areas!
There are many other ways of subtle institutional RACISM that ANY black person could tell Boris about IF he would listen.........just (apparently) not the two guys he knows.
:-)

Posted by laramiebob on 5/30/2018 12:53:00 PM (view original):
Tangy. Let it go. The FACT that Boris wants to consciously claim that blacks don't STILL suffer/face institutional racism is HIS willful ignorance and HE has the right to choose to (sort of) bury his head to it. And, he is right, things are improving in MANY areas and regions of the Country.

But, you are right within your knowledge and certainty about the sad but continuing presence of racism's subtle practice......... in MANY areas of society.
Access to schooling is a big one (also affected by poverty as Boris points out)
But, also, in areas such as access to credit. Or higher car loan rates based on color which has just been publicly aired and re-printed in newspapers around the Country.
Or redlining, yes it's illegal, but is still subtly persists in many metro areas!
There are many other ways of subtle institutional RACISM that ANY black person could tell Boris about IF he would listen.........just (apparently) not the two guys he knows.
:-)

lol

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 8:34:00 AM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/29/2018 9:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by all3 on 5/29/2018 9:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 5/29/2018 6:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tangplay on 5/29/2018 5:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by all3 on 5/29/2018 3:29:00 PM (view original):
Why are we just discussing racism against blacks? What about the racism of blacks? No idea where to look for the numbers, but I'd bet the % of blacks who are racist is much higher than the % of whites. I'd also bet the % of racist whites has decreased much more over the last couple decades than the % of racist blacks. It's kind of hard for any race to say "Yeah, I'm cool with them.", when you have some of them screaming "I hate your black/white guts." in your face. Shouldn't addressing the racism of blacks be part of the discussion on how to make the problem better (it will never be eliminated)?

I don't see how this is relevant to the discussion. Unless you can name an institutionally racist practice against white people this is a big fat nothingburger.

also, if you and your ancestors had been discriminated against for 250 years, wouldn't you be a little antagonistic against the people doing the discriminating?

Is it understandable? Yes.
Does that make it right or less detrimental? No.
You don't think white racism would decrease if nothing changed except black racism?

Not addressing the broken record named tang. institutional racism this, institutional racism that. He uses that "rationale" (excuse) so much he needs a key on his keyboard to type it all at once to avoid carpal tunnel.

Institutional racism isn't an excuse. No need for hyperbole here.

Tangplay here is where we differ.

Your definition of institutional racism:

100% due to the judicial system. You also believe because we were racists in the 40s it still impacts blacks now.

Mine is:

If KFC openly states we won't hire blacks. No institution does that.

Since you are dumb. I will give you this analogy. Say as a child I had a bad experience on a roller coaster and threw up after. I now won't allow my kids on roller coasters even though the one I threw up on has been long gone and my kids may have better constitution than me. To you that roller coaster is still causing my kids trauma because of what happened to me they are paying the price. To me its just me being an overprotective parent.

BTW - I love roller coasters and never threw up on one.

My point is the past is in the past and while it may influence future events it is not to be held against the current generation. Otherwise we should still be punishing Germany for the Nazis.

So our operational definition of institutional racism differs hence our debate goes nowhere and we end up going in circles.

Do you understand this? Y or N?

I agree with this statement. And I understand that you and I have differing definitions. That's why I wanted to clarify this long ago. So let me make my positions clear.

Here is an example, since I can't come up with an analogy.

Black person accused of a crime and convicted, despite being innocent, because the judge and police assumed (based on stereotypes) that black people commit most crimes and are troublemakers. While those people may not have been racist, we all have bias and we all stereotype. This happens a lot, and at a far greater rate than with white people. That is institutional racism.

Another example:
Black family tries to move into a good part of town in the 70's. They are denied because of redlining. That family moves into a bad part of town with tons of drugs (that may or may not have been promoted by the feds), bad schools, and lesser opportunities. That family is now at a disadvantage vs a family that was let into a better part of town. It is now MORE LIKELY that people in that family do drugs, don't graduate HS, have bad influences, etc. While these are all choices, it is still a disadvantage. That is institutional racism.

It is a little more cut and dry than a company just outright not hiring black people. More bias nowadays than outright racism. The roller coaster isn't a great analogy because the things being compared are not really equal.

It isn't 'punishing' anyone. What do you think happens if we as a society admit that institutional racism exists? We don't 'punish' white people. I don't have white guilt. We fix the problems by equalizing opportunity. We already agreed on 8/9 proposals I gave. If Jews still hadn't recovered from the Holocaust, we don't punish the Nazis further, we help the Jews. Seems simple enough.

Do you understand this? Y or N?

If you don't, just ask me questions instead of making accusations over things I didn't say.

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 8:36:00 AM (view original):

Posted by all3 on 5/30/2018 8:30:00 AM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 5/29/2018 7:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by DoctorKz on 5/29/2018 7:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 5/29/2018 7:06:00 PM (view original):
Nobody asked you to write a check. Its easy for you (or me, for that matter) to say get over it, since we didn't go through it. As a Jew should I get over what happen in WWII? It was over 70 years ago.

You are right. It is easy for me to say that. I hadn't considered that. And if people encountered more people like myself regarding race, they would know we are rooting for them. That there is hope. I have good friends that get profiled. A lot. It ****** me off.

True. There are many people out there who don't see color, or gender, religion or sexual preference when looking at a person, just the person. It sounds like you are one of them. I like to think I'm one too. The problem is, while it is getting better, there are still far too many people who only see race, or gender, religion or sexual preference and judge people based on that.

When I argued this to a certain someone on this site a while back, he said everyone sees color and called me a liar for claiming I didn't.
Looks like it has a different effect on him coming from his own side of thinking.

Absolutely love the idea of a No Single Mothering campaign.

I have two daughters in middle school and they don't hear one iota on that topic. I find that ridiculous. Of course they hear it from my wife and me all the time. DON'T BE A SINGLE PARENT. We pound that table as loudly as we do with DON'T DO DRUGS.

They did pound it at my old high school and there was a ton of stigma around it, like if you became a single parent you were suddenly isolated from your classmates.

Posted by strikeout26 on 5/30/2018 11:19:00 AM (view original):
Could it possibly be that the difference in average earnings between the two races have to do with the number of people that have college degrees? Don't let logic get in the way, B_L. I've already proven to you that the wage gap narrows drastically when comparing blacks and whites with college degrees. Remember, black women with degrees actually make more than white women with degrees. Once again, I would hate for logic to get in the way for you.

Could it possibly be that the average income of a black man with a degree is the same as the overall average income of a white person?

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 11:24:00 AM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 5/30/2018 11:19:00 AM (view original):
Could it possibly be that the difference in average earnings between the two races have to do with the number of people that have college degrees? Don't let logic get in the way, B_L. I've already proven to you that the wage gap narrows drastically when comparing blacks and whites with college degrees. Remember, black women with degrees actually make more than white women with degrees. Once again, I would hate for logic to get in the way for you.

Right and due to generational wealth some cannot go to the same universities as wealthier white people. OK. But that gap is closing.

That's due to institutional racism. That gap.

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 11:41:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/30/2018 11:35:00 AM (view original):
And this is without even talking about the justice system, which is the easiest way to prove institutional racism.

This belief assumes that blacks do not commit crimes any more frequently than whites. But if black men make up almost 50% of the prison population, they committed roughly 42% of violent crimes in the 1990s, and many studies have shown that, when severity of crime and past record are taken into account, there is no bias against blacks in the criminal justice system. At its inception, the War on Drugs, often interpreted as a “War on Blacks,” had the strong support of the Congressional Black Caucus, whose members aimed to stem inner-city violence. If these black officials, who at the time exhorted Congress to “save our communities,” were racists, then the definition of this term is beyond my comprehension.

Also to halt all profiling would increase the number of blacks murdered, mostly by other blacks. And black leaders would cite this rise as further evidence of racism, as happened in New York in the 1980s, when cops turned a blind eye to a wave of black crime. Many of those crying racism about today’s New York City policing were sounding the same call about the Dinkins administration’s lax policing.

Please explain why there is more innocent black people convicted than innocent white people. Far more.

Posted by wylie715 on 5/30/2018 12:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by all3 on 5/30/2018 8:30:00 AM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 5/29/2018 7:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by DoctorKz on 5/29/2018 7:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 5/29/2018 7:06:00 PM (view original):
Nobody asked you to write a check. Its easy for you (or me, for that matter) to say get over it, since we didn't go through it. As a Jew should I get over what happen in WWII? It was over 70 years ago.

You are right. It is easy for me to say that. I hadn't considered that. And if people encountered more people like myself regarding race, they would know we are rooting for them. That there is hope. I have good friends that get profiled. A lot. It ****** me off.

True. There are many people out there who don't see color, or gender, religion or sexual preference when looking at a person, just the person. It sounds like you are one of them. I like to think I'm one too. The problem is, while it is getting better, there are still far too many people who only see race, or gender, religion or sexual preference and judge people based on that.

When I argued this to a certain someone on this site a while back, he said everyone sees color and called me a liar for claiming I didn't.
Looks like it has a different effect on him coming from his own side of thinking.

Absolutely love the idea of a No Single Mothering campaign.

I hope you're not referring to me. I don't think I've ever called you a liar, or anyone else on this site either.

He was referring to me. Everyone sees color. Unless you are colorblind. Some people aren't racist or extremely biased, I would say most people aren't.

I don't think I said 'liar', I just expressed that using that term 'I don't see race' is more harmful than just acknowledging bias and moving on.

Posted by laramiebob on 5/30/2018 12:41:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/30/2018 8:25:00 AM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 5/29/2018 6:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by cccp1014 on 5/29/2018 2:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by laramiebob on 5/29/2018 2:47:00 PM (view original):
Boris, your premise is flawed........ you don't DECIDE to become a single Mom........... You decide to fornicate unwisely and end up alone and without a male partner. THAT occurs for a whole shitload of reasons..... from deadbeat maledom to crazy females who can't "nest",-------- among others..........

You have made my point. We need to address this first and foremost not race relations. Single parenthood is slowly killing this country.

you may be right, but I don't see how that can be fixed? Do e make it illegal to have sex if you are not married? Who has to enforce that law....and how would they know? You keep bringing up single parent households as being the major part of the problem. I'm not sure I agree with that. That's neither here nor there. I don't see any way to fix it. Sex education in schools doesn't do it. I think we both agree there's no way you're going to stop people from having sex, whether they are married or not. So, how do we do it? How about a suggestion for fixing it instead of just saying it needs to be fixed.

I'd spend $10bn on education starting in middle school. Maybe provide incentives to kids who graduate HS and don't have a kid by giving them $5k per year for college. Now it won't pay for a lot but it will pay for some state schooling community college. Again my kids are in middle school and NO ONE is talking to them about the dangers of single parenthood.

That is how I would attack it. Similar to the "Just Say No" campaign vs. drugs in the 80s. I'd do the same thing for single motherhood now. I would also make welfare programs a lot less attractive. Rather than giving welfare stamps, that they sell for other sh*t, I'd deliver actual food. This way they have to eat what I provide vs. what they want to eat. So they won't go hungry but they won't get to choose necessarily what they like.

This is what I would do wylie.

I'm quoting this because it's a reasonable start to an approach to the problem. And I do agree with Boris about the impact of (particularly) Fatherless children, any single Parent home has it tougher economically in today's world. No doubt about it.

Gov't (however) can/should only articulate for social behavior changes, NOT legislate for social engineering, as some think is OK to try.
The Just Say No campaign is a good example. Gov't $$$, yes, but only on an ad campaign/slogan/social influence attempt, not thru Law.

The problem with the Just Say No campaign was wasted dollars caused by ridiculously out-dated and inappropriate messaging for the parties intended.

At the middle school age level IMO Boris, it should be the Parent(s) province ONLY. The children are too varied and (some) emotionally "perplexed" at that age to let Gov't mess with them. BUT, their should/could be a campaign waged towards the appropriate age group (teen-agers) about wise sexual practices. Use humour. Have Joe Camel (or some modern-day appropriate popular icon) to look into the camera, deliver a safe sex AND family planning message with some cute/funny slogan to tie it all in like/say/for example:

Wrap that rascal, cowboy" or "Wrap that Rascal, bro" or "wrap that rascal, homey"

whatever the proper slang is for the region.

Somebody should start one of those hashmark thingies............. "Wrap that rascal #/life control"

something like that...............??

I am the closest age to teen on this thread, and I would like to say that you would be laughed out of the country if you played an ad that said 'Wrap that rascal, cowboy.' IMO we need to take people seriously. Like show some actual stats like what CCCP did to say that being a single parent is a bad idea. If you become a single parent, you are in deep ****.

Posted by tangplay on 5/30/2018 1:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 5/30/2018 12:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by all3 on 5/30/2018 8:30:00 AM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 5/29/2018 7:29:00 PM (view original):

Posted by DoctorKz on 5/29/2018 7:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by wylie715 on 5/29/2018 7:06:00 PM (view original):
Nobody asked you to write a check. Its easy for you (or me, for that matter) to say get over it, since we didn't go through it. As a Jew should I get over what happen in WWII? It was over 70 years ago.

You are right. It is easy for me to say that. I hadn't considered that. And if people encountered more people like myself regarding race, they would know we are rooting for them. That there is hope. I have good friends that get profiled. A lot. It ****** me off.

True. There are many people out there who don't see color, or gender, religion or sexual preference when looking at a person, just the person. It sounds like you are one of them. I like to think I'm one too. The problem is, while it is getting better, there are still far too many people who only see race, or gender, religion or sexual preference and judge people based on that.

When I argued this to a certain someone on this site a while back, he said everyone sees color and called me a liar for claiming I didn't.
Looks like it has a different effect on him coming from his own side of thinking.

Absolutely love the idea of a No Single Mothering campaign.

I hope you're not referring to me. I don't think I've ever called you a liar, or anyone else on this site either.

He was referring to me. Everyone sees color. Unless you are colorblind. Some people aren't racist or extremely biased, I would say most people aren't.

I don't think I said 'liar', I just expressed that using that term 'I don't see race' is more harmful than just acknowledging bias and moving on.

I would say the vast majority are not. Unfortunately, the relatively small percentage that are make a living off of it through social activism, lobbying, political office, etc.

Posted by gomiami1972 on 5/30/2018 12:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/30/2018 11:23:00 AM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 5/30/2018 11:19:00 AM (view original):
Could it possibly be that the difference in average earnings between the two races have to do with the number of people that have college degrees? Don't let logic get in the way, B_L. I've already proven to you that the wage gap narrows drastically when comparing blacks and whites with college degrees. Remember, black women with degrees actually make more than white women with degrees. Once again, I would hate for logic to get in the way for you.

Hmmm I wonder if racism could play a role in someone's access to college?

That depends on the school. Do you want me to list the racist institutions again? You see, some of the problem is that the same white people championing the idea of racism are the racists themselves.

I would argue that it is much more likely that the people saying that they don't see race are the racists over the people acknowledging that racism exists and that it is a problem.

Posted by laramiebob on 5/30/2018 12:53:00 PM (view original):
Tangy. Let it go. The FACT that Boris wants to consciously claim that blacks don't STILL suffer/face institutional racism is HIS willful ignorance and HE has the right to choose to (sort of) bury his head to it. And, he is right, things are improving in MANY areas and regions of the Country.

But, you are right within your knowledge and certainty about the sad but continuing presence of racism's subtle practice......... in MANY areas of society.
Access to schooling is a big one (also affected by poverty as Boris points out)
But, also, in areas such as access to credit. Or higher car loan rates based on color which has just been publicly aired and re-printed in newspapers around the Country.
Or redlining, yes it's illegal, but is still subtly persists in many metro areas!
There are many other ways of subtle institutional RACISM that ANY black person could tell Boris about IF he would listen.........just (apparently) not the two guys he knows.
:-)

You are right, bob. I am really close to just dropping the issue if he makes one more statement about what I believe that I already had stated is false about 50 times.

Posted by gomiami1972 on 5/30/2018 12:51:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/30/2018 11:23:00 AM (view original):

Posted by strikeout26 on 5/30/2018 11:19:00 AM (view original):
Could it possibly be that the difference in average earnings between the two races have to do with the number of people that have college degrees? Don't let logic get in the way, B_L. I've already proven to you that the wage gap narrows drastically when comparing blacks and whites with college degrees. Remember, black women with degrees actually make more than white women with degrees. Once again, I would hate for logic to get in the way for you.

Hmmm I wonder if racism could play a role in someone's access to college?

That depends on the school. Do you want me to list the racist institutions again? You see, some of the problem is that the same white people championing the idea of racism are the racists themselves.

LOL