I'm not sure there is a solution at this point.... More than likely the outcome will be a fall from power similar to the empires of Britian, Spain, Rome, Persia, Babylon and Egypt. History repeats itself.

Think about this....here are some common features of an empire in the declining stages of its reign:
1. Rampant sexual immorality, an aversion to marriage in favor of "living together" and an increased divorce rate all combine to undermine family stability.
2. Many foreign immigrants settle in the empire's capital and major cities.
3. Both irresponsible pleasure-seeking and pessimism increase among the people and their leaders.
4. The government provides extensive welfare for the poor



Sound familiar?

Posted by tecwrg on 9/11/2014 7:46:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 9/11/2014 7:25:00 AM (view original):
The solution is to rip apart the fallacy that all men are equal and that each vote carries equal weight.

If the voting public was forced to have at least a basic understanding of the issues, we'd have better results.   While this returns us to some sort of Jim Crow Law society, it would be better for the country if a simple test had to be passed in order to vote.  Then we'd get past the "Repubs hate poor people" and "Libs just want to spend your tax money" messages and politicians would be forced to actually address real issues.

As it stands, there's no reason for them to do anything but reinforce voter beliefs.

Here's the liberal spin on your solution: "By forcing people to take and pass a test, you'll be disenfranchising the less educated people.  It's another attempt for the Republicans to control and influence the voting process".

Because that's exactly the spin they're already using on the topic of voter ID laws.

Sure, my "solution" never happens.

But, as long as we allow people who simply vote a straight ticket(all Repub/Dem), we get what we get.    And that's just both sides yelling out stereotypes about the other side while pandering to the fears of their side.

Posted by moy23 on 9/11/2014 8:08:00 AM (view original):
I'm not sure there is a solution at this point.... More than likely the outcome will be a fall from power similar to the empires of Britian, Spain, Rome, Persia, Babylon and Egypt. History repeats itself.

Think about this....here are some common features of an empire in the declining stages of its reign:
1. Rampant sexual immorality, an aversion to marriage in favor of "living together" and an increased divorce rate all combine to undermine family stability.
2. Many foreign immigrants settle in the empire's capital and major cities.
3. Both irresponsible pleasure-seeking and pessimism increase among the people and their leaders.
4. The government provides extensive welfare for the poor



Sound familiar?

This seems far too doomsday to me.   Our govt won't fall.

FWIW, I'm not talking about trick questions designed to screw people up.  Or a long, drawn out quiz.   5 questions.

Is Osama bin Laden dead?
Not "Did Osama bin Laden lead ISIS?" or something that could be misleading.

Who are the two major candidates?
Barak Obamma and Mick Romney would be acceptable.    Barak Obamma and Ron Regan would not.


Of course, this is fantasy land.  I may as well be in BL's fantasy land where candidates don't say things they don't mean or make promises they won't keep.

Posted by tecwrg on 9/11/2014 7:46:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 9/11/2014 7:25:00 AM (view original):
The solution is to rip apart the fallacy that all men are equal and that each vote carries equal weight.

If the voting public was forced to have at least a basic understanding of the issues, we'd have better results.   While this returns us to some sort of Jim Crow Law society, it would be better for the country if a simple test had to be passed in order to vote.  Then we'd get past the "Repubs hate poor people" and "Libs just want to spend your tax money" messages and politicians would be forced to actually address real issues.

As it stands, there's no reason for them to do anything but reinforce voter beliefs.

Here's the liberal spin on your solution: "By forcing people to take and pass a test, you'll be disenfranchising the less educated people.  It's another attempt for the Republicans to control and influence the voting process".

Because that's exactly the spin they're already using on the topic of voter ID laws.

They passed that here in Alabama. It's just like you say.

Even though there are TONS of billboards and tv ads about how anyone can come and get a FREE Alabama state ID,  yet somehow this is just trying to keep blacks from voting...

Yeah, but if you have an ID, the police might ask for you to show it.   And that's probably a violation of your rights. 

Liberals don't like having to show ID.

Is it because they're embarrassed or ashamed of who they are?

Posted by moy23 on 9/11/2014 8:08:00 AM (view original):
I'm not sure there is a solution at this point.... More than likely the outcome will be a fall from power similar to the empires of Britian, Spain, Rome, Persia, Babylon and Egypt. History repeats itself.

Think about this....here are some common features of an empire in the declining stages of its reign:
1. Rampant sexual immorality, an aversion to marriage in favor of "living together" and an increased divorce rate all combine to undermine family stability.
2. Many foreign immigrants settle in the empire's capital and major cities.
3. Both irresponsible pleasure-seeking and pessimism increase among the people and their leaders.
4. The government provides extensive welfare for the poor



Sound familiar?

It's funny that you would compare marriage today to marriage in Rome/Persia/Babylon etc. They are completely different things.

I'm also fairly certain that none of them provided "extensive welfare for the poor."

And America has always had a lot of immigrants. That's kind of our deal. The only people that can complain are native Americans.

Posted by bad_luck on 9/11/2014 11:29:00 AM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 9/11/2014 8:08:00 AM (view original):
I'm not sure there is a solution at this point.... More than likely the outcome will be a fall from power similar to the empires of Britian, Spain, Rome, Persia, Babylon and Egypt. History repeats itself.

Think about this....here are some common features of an empire in the declining stages of its reign:
1. Rampant sexual immorality, an aversion to marriage in favor of "living together" and an increased divorce rate all combine to undermine family stability.
2. Many foreign immigrants settle in the empire's capital and major cities.
3. Both irresponsible pleasure-seeking and pessimism increase among the people and their leaders.
4. The government provides extensive welfare for the poor



Sound familiar?

It's funny that you would compare marriage today to marriage in Rome/Persia/Babylon etc. They are completely different things.

I'm also fairly certain that none of them provided "extensive welfare for the poor."

And America has always had a lot of immigrants. That's kind of our deal. The only people that can complain are native Americans.

How is it funny? Divorce rates are much higher than even 40 years ago and certainly more so than 100 year ago. 13 year olds are having babies and there are TV shows about it. Premarital sex is the norm more so than the exception it was 50 years ago. Ceasar Augustus was concerned about his sisters promiscuity because he knew the ramifications it would have on the empire. Notice I didn't even get into LGBT.

Other signs of a declining nation... Idols/Heroes shift from war heroes/explorers to innovators/business leaders to finally entertainers during an empires demise.

Look I'm not saying it will happen tomorrow or even under Obama.... But HISTORY DOES REPEAT ITSELF and that's been proven time and time again. So I think its funny how you simply brush off the similarities of the current USA to those empires of the past. Our politicians don't even talk to each... Only over each other. You yourself can't even cede the fact that there ARE similarities to the list above despite the fact I did not even blame one political party or another.

If you've ever read the prince you'd be astounded as to how much of what Machiavelli said some 600+ years ago pertains to what is happening today. History repeats itself.

Most of what you said was basically indicative of my point - seeing things from the perspective, it looks like, of primarily conservative news sources - and I don't agree with all of your characterizations.  I don't want to get too deeply into most of your points.  But I do have to say one thing, because I laughed out loud.

You think premarital sex was the exception 50 years ago?  During the beginning of the free love movement in the mid-60s?  Come on.  Premarital sex has ALWAYS been the norm.  It used to be more taboo to talk about it, but it absolutely happened.  Always.

I am reminded of a study I read a few years ago.  Some history professor at a small college in Massachusetts had dug up some old historical town records from his town and 2 neighboring towns.  Keep in mind, this is in Massachusetts - the heart of Puritan country - from the late 17th and early 18th centuries.  He found that the historical records showed a birth LESS than 9 months following over 50% of all marriages.  Over 50%.  Puritan Massachusetts.  You think FIFTY years ago we were above premarital sex?  We've had premarital sex since far before we were an independent country.  Since before Great Britain was a country, too.  Don't let your Christian conservative talking head news sources convince you that we're falling into a moral tailspin over this.

Posted by bad_luck on 9/11/2014 1:14:00 PM (view original):
Most marriages in ancient civilizations and even in 17th and 18th century Britain were arranged. They were financial partnerships. That's different from what we have now, regardless of the divorce rate. It's an apples to oranges comparison.

If you're so concerned about the divorce rate you should be arguing for things like better education (both in general and sexual) and against things like laws that prevent people from marrying the person they love. 

More marriages --> less divorces?

How do you figure?

I hate to agree with dahs but he's been pretty spot on the last couple of days(maybe he is more often but he's also been more succinct the last couple of days).

Premarital sex isn't some new phenomenon.    Open premarital sex is much more recent.   Back when I went to HS(76-81), girl got knocked up, girl dropped out of school.   There was a stigma attached with being "publicly promiscuous" even though many were ******* like rabbits.  That's no longer the case.   Does the public acceptance make it more frequent?  I'm sure.   I imagine the 16 y/o girl who hasn't had sex is subject to more peer scorn than the one that's 4 months prego.

Anyway, I think that's where the Christian right has a problem.

I think what he means is that gay people marrying straight people ultimately get divorced, maybe?

FWIW, the same goes with divorce.   My parents divorced in the late 60s.   I was the only kid in my class with divorced parents.  Single parents didn't exist(at least not publicly).    Most 2nd graders are probably in the majority if they're single/divorced parent kids.