In defense of traditional lineup construction Topic

I understand the argument for getting the most at-bats and PAs possible for your best hitter or two, but aside from not liking the practice, now pretty much universal, of hitting your best power hitter second in the lineup for aesthetic reasons, I think that teams are missing out on run-production by not going with the more traditional approach, and are limiting their tactical options.

Take the Yankees for example, who bat Anthony Volpe first, and with the year he is having that is a good thing, and Volpe is a great base-stealer as well. But then the lineup is Soto, Judge, Verdugo, and then Stanton or Rizzo.

Now, it is true that the Yankees don't have a traditional number 2 hitter which compounds things, but let's say - admittedly hypothetical- that when DJ LeMahieu comes back he is back to being a good hitter with sold OBP. Or else that Oswaldo Cabrera or John Berti prove to be good contact hitters with good OBP and good bunting skills.

The would mean you could have a lineup of Volpe, then DJ or Cabrera or Berti, then Soto, Judge cleanup, Verdugo and then on...

Why do that?

First of all, often Volpe does not steal because Juan Soto is up and you don't want to get thrown out in case Soto hits one out. But Soto is also a .300 hitter (remember them?), and so Volpe in scoring position would be a good thing in case Soto only gets a single or double. And if Volpe gets on base, and steals, or wants to run, a good hit-an-run man would give you extra options. If Volpe steals second or doubles, a good bunter can move him to third with Soto and Judge coming up.

The knock on RBI as a stat is that it depends on your teammates. That is actually a GOOD thing and makes it a good baseball stat - so have players who can get on base and move people over in front of the RBI guys. We used to even talk about Runs scored as a big stat, we still should. It is a TEAM stat.

Now, there is a further consideration: If you have a guy with a .333 OBP on base ahead of a Soto or a Judge, you have a one-in-three chance to have someone on base when Soto or Judge homes or hits a double. If you have TWO guys with .333 OBPs ahead of Soto and Judge, I admit I don't have sophisticated math skills, but it seems to me that the likelihood that ONE person is on base when Soto and Judge come up is now .666 or two out of three!

Why would not make it more likely that someone is on base when those two guys get up than not? Because you will get a few more ABs for Soto and so maybe 5 more homers in a season? Isn't it better to have more chances to score runs all season long?

Also, I don't have the math skills to calculate the likelihood that of two .333 OBP players that BOTH will be on base in any given inning, but maybe someone here does.

I think teams should rethink the value of the traditional lineup construction.

Now, I know that one argument is that in any case, your lineup only matters for the first inning. But aside from the fact that the first inning happens in every game, so you have 162 team opportunities minimum with the traditional structure, with only a modest increase in at-bats for your best hitter hitting number 2 instead, consider the following:

Who is more likely to make the last out of an inning? Your leadoff hitter or your number nine hitter? So this means that there is some likelihood of your leadoff hitter leading off more than once.

Also, if your best hitter hits third, and you have two have two even just decent OBP hitters ahead of him, you have three .333 OBP hitters ahead of your cleanup hitter which means a .999 or 999 out of 1,000 chance to have at least ONE player on base when your number 4 hitter comes up, which also means a somewhat greater likelihood of your number 4 hitter getting an extra at-bat, in fact a near-certainty of it. And with people on base!
5/25/2024 6:30 AM (edited)
I never heard of putting your best power hitter second in the lineup.
5/25/2024 11:17 AM
Posted by Lennybruce26 on 5/25/2024 11:17:00 AM (view original):
I never heard of putting your best power hitter second in the lineup.
Almost every RL MLB team does it now.

Aaron Judge had been batting second for the past five seasons, now he bats thrid because Juan Soto bats second.

Adley Rutschman bats second for the Orioles.

Bobby Witt, Jr. bats 2nd for KC.

Ohtani bats second for LA.

Some clubs, like the Braves, don't do this: Ozuna and Olson hit 3 and 4.

But more do hit their big power guys second now.

Even the Mets bat Alonso second.


5/25/2024 12:01 PM
I did not know. I follow the Phillies and they use Retamuto second. He is definitely a good power hitter but not the best on the team. Of course the Phillies are the kings of being counter intuitive when they have Schwarber lead off. Really Bad avg but very good OBP.
Top HR hitter on the team but lacks speed.

In Sim I like to bunch up my top 5 OBP 1-5 in some manner with the best combo power and OBP batting 3 and I put in a good power guy with maybe the 6-8 best OBP at 6. I think of Ruth followed by Gehrig as the traditional 3, 4 combo. Obviously Ruth was the best HR hitter but Lou cleaned up. Both really high OBP.

i like batting second a high OBP with some decent slugging %. And some speed. Not looking for HR.
HR from 3,4,6.
5/25/2024 12:17 PM
The odds of exactly one out of two consecutive hitters who each have a .333 OBP reaching base is 44.4%, ignoring the influence of the pitcher. This is the same chance that neither of them will reach base.

My issue is that the OBP monsters of earlier generations added significant value to their teams because of their ability to get on base in front of sluggers. I understand the analytics behind everyone swinging for the fences but I'd rather have a couple of players at the top of the order with higher OBP even with less HR power.

If you change the OBP from .333 to .400, the odds of none of the three hitters reaching base declines to 21.6% compared to 29.7% for the lower OBP hitters.

5/25/2024 6:37 PM
Posted by PennQuaker on 5/25/2024 6:37:00 PM (view original):
The odds of exactly one out of two consecutive hitters who each have a .333 OBP reaching base is 44.4%, ignoring the influence of the pitcher. This is the same chance that neither of them will reach base.

My issue is that the OBP monsters of earlier generations added significant value to their teams because of their ability to get on base in front of sluggers. I understand the analytics behind everyone swinging for the fences but I'd rather have a couple of players at the top of the order with higher OBP even with less HR power.

If you change the OBP from .333 to .400, the odds of none of the three hitters reaching base declines to 21.6% compared to 29.7% for the lower OBP hitters.

Thank you!
5/26/2024 6:48 AM
Posted by PennQuaker on 5/25/2024 6:37:00 PM (view original):
The odds of exactly one out of two consecutive hitters who each have a .333 OBP reaching base is 44.4%, ignoring the influence of the pitcher. This is the same chance that neither of them will reach base.

My issue is that the OBP monsters of earlier generations added significant value to their teams because of their ability to get on base in front of sluggers. I understand the analytics behind everyone swinging for the fences but I'd rather have a couple of players at the top of the order with higher OBP even with less HR power.

If you change the OBP from .333 to .400, the odds of none of the three hitters reaching base declines to 21.6% compared to 29.7% for the lower OBP hitters.

Thank you!
5/26/2024 6:48 AM
Posted by Lennybruce26 on 5/25/2024 11:17:00 AM (view original):
I never heard of putting your best power hitter second in the lineup.
He was a Yankee fan and the Yanks put Soto 2nd always. With Judge 3rd it aint a bad lineup.
5/27/2024 11:35 PM
Agree with ItalyProf's first post. It's a very weird time in MLB, right now, and this movement away from traditional (dare I say common sense) lineup strategy is one of the big reasons I find the game nearly unwatchable these days. The other big reason is the disastrous approach to pitching. Couple the two together, and the shift in the game is just too much for an old Gen Xer like me.
5/31/2024 5:03 PM
Posted by jmcraven74 on 5/31/2024 5:03:00 PM (view original):
Agree with ItalyProf's first post. It's a very weird time in MLB, right now, and this movement away from traditional (dare I say common sense) lineup strategy is one of the big reasons I find the game nearly unwatchable these days. The other big reason is the disastrous approach to pitching. Couple the two together, and the shift in the game is just too much for an old Gen Xer like me.
Great post. I wondering what the pitching issue is that you refer to.

I love the pitch clock. I’m not sure about the defensive shift rule. The faster game has made a world of difference for me and it brought me back as a fan.
And I have been enjoying baseball more then in a long long time.
5/31/2024 5:28 PM
Posted by Lennybruce26 on 5/31/2024 5:28:00 PM (view original):
Posted by jmcraven74 on 5/31/2024 5:03:00 PM (view original):
Agree with ItalyProf's first post. It's a very weird time in MLB, right now, and this movement away from traditional (dare I say common sense) lineup strategy is one of the big reasons I find the game nearly unwatchable these days. The other big reason is the disastrous approach to pitching. Couple the two together, and the shift in the game is just too much for an old Gen Xer like me.
Great post. I wondering what the pitching issue is that you refer to.

I love the pitch clock. I’m not sure about the defensive shift rule. The faster game has made a world of difference for me and it brought me back as a fan.
And I have been enjoying baseball more then in a long long time.
This article does a good job of addressing what I meant when referring to the "disastrous approach to pitching."

I also agree very strongly with what Justin Verlander recently said.

The game is an unhealthy place right now, and it's not particularly fun to watch, imo. I'm also not a fan of the shifting focus to the individual's feat over the team's success, but that's more of a generational difference that I know is unpopular.
6/2/2024 3:29 PM (edited)
JMCraven74, I am guessing that you were not referring to pitch clock, which I think has had a good effect even if I regret that we needed to finally add a clock to baseball, but instead that you meant starters going five innings, a million relievers just throwing as hard as they can for one inning, then blowing their arms out and needing Tommy John. No relievers that go 3 or 4 innings, no complete games, no-hitters that the pitcher isn't allowed to finish because of a rigid adherence to pitch counts at the expense of the fans getting to see something special, all that stuff. I still love the fame, but hate these changes.
6/2/2024 4:36 PM
Posted by italyprof on 6/2/2024 4:36:00 PM (view original):
JMCraven74, I am guessing that you were not referring to pitch clock, which I think has had a good effect even if I regret that we needed to finally add a clock to baseball, but instead that you meant starters going five innings, a million relievers just throwing as hard as they can for one inning, then blowing their arms out and needing Tommy John. No relievers that go 3 or 4 innings, no complete games, no-hitters that the pitcher isn't allowed to finish because of a rigid adherence to pitch counts at the expense of the fans getting to see something special, all that stuff. I still love the fame, but hate these changes.
I agree with all of that, and I also think the pitch clock is too short. I'm not opposed to having one that reins in the worst offenders, but it should not rush a tired starter in the 6th inning such that he hurts himself with fatigued mechanics or hits a batter with an erratic pitch. I don't know the answer, but the arm injuries are off the charts.
6/2/2024 5:21 PM
I would love to see Sandy Koufax seasons and the great Ron Guidry 25-3 type seasons but there is something to be said for longer careers and less IR for starters by having a 5 pitcher rotation with 90 inning pitch counts enforced religiously in the regular season.



I am happy for great pitchers that they have long careers as far as meaningful seasons are concerned. It needs to be recognized that today 17 wins is an incredible accomplishment and references and comparisons to the 4 man rotation pitchers is unfair.

I don’t know the answer to this but are there more IR for starters or relievers this season?

Naturally you need more relief innings with the lower pitch counts. Maybe there should be a 26 man squad with an extra pitcher.

When you are paying pitchers more money then the budgets of some cities and towns those investments must be protected.

Economic realities and also the long overdue deserved consideration for the livelihood of the players is finally a thing.

Just look at it this way - One day people will call this era the good old days.
6/2/2024 5:58 PM (edited)
I'm less convinced that the rigid adherence to pitch counts over the last 20-25 years has done anything to improve longevity. If so, shouldn't we be seeing more pitchers in their 40s being effective because they pitched fewer "tired" innings earlier in their careers?
6/2/2024 8:20 PM
12 Next ▸
In defense of traditional lineup construction Topic

Search Criteria

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

© 1999-2024 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.