Defensive Rating dont matter Topic

solson
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The defensive ratings dont matter.  I build the following team:

    Def Rtg
76-77 Don Buse PG 90
88-89 Michael Jordan SG 95
06-07 Raja Bell SG 90
71-72 Dave DeBusschere PF 90
88-89 Mark Eaton C 90


I am giving up:

112.3 points per game
50.6% FG %
and have had a 30+ point scorer against me in every game.

This is making me not want to play the game anymore. If defense does not matter then it is not like real life and then what is the point?

I would love to hear other peoples thoughts.
9/1/2010 12:35 PM
all3
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You're way behind the times.  Check-out some of the other threads.
9/1/2010 12:47 PM
solson
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I have searched the forums (of course) but nothing really is solved there.  What is the consenses in the forums?
9/1/2010 1:49 PM
longtallbrad
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Posted by solson on 9/1/2010 12:36:00 PM (view original):

The defensive ratings dont matter.  I build the following team:

    Def Rtg
76-77 Don Buse PG 90
88-89 Michael Jordan SG 95
06-07 Raja Bell SG 90
71-72 Dave DeBusschere PF 90
88-89 Mark Eaton C 90


I am giving up:

112.3 points per game
50.6% FG %
and have had a 30+ point scorer against me in every game.

This is making me not want to play the game anymore. If defense does not matter then it is not like real life and then what is the point?

I would love to hear other peoples thoughts.
My sense is that a lot of experienced owners believe that the effect of defense is less than it should be in the current (and by now long-running) version of the sim.  Some players who were all-world defenders in real life are worth very little in WISNBA unless they also do other things that the sim favors, like grab bunches of rebounds or shoot a lot of 3s. 

We've heard pretty clearly from WIS staff that this won't change anytime soon, although they're aware of our sentiments.  However, they are raising the cost of offense (and, it seems, scoring efficiency in particular), so it'll be interesting to see whether that has any real effect on the functional impact of defense.

Having said all that, I really wonder what kind of league your team is in.  If you're competing in a $42 mil open league, I can well believe you're getting trounced with that lineup.  You don't have much scoring power, three of your starters don't shoot much or shoot well, and you don't have nearly enough rebounding.  Because you're not shooting well or grabbing many rebounds, opponents have many more chances to score than they ordinarily would...so it's no surprise that you're giving up a lot of points.
9/1/2010 2:03 PM
solson
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Thanks for the summary.  I appreciate it.  I have built all kinds of teams: offensive, reboundiong, FTA, balanced and defense just does not matter.   It seems to me if you dont have the follwoing players on your team then you cant win:

PG BILLUPS
SG ALLEN
SF BIRD
PF BARKLEY
C MALONE

That is bad.  I think it is just time for me to move on to one of WhatIfs competitors, like SportSims.net.  It is football, but at least defense matters.

9/1/2010 2:26 PM
eleibowitz
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Posted by solson on 9/1/2010 2:26:00 PM (view original):

Thanks for the summary.  I appreciate it.  I have built all kinds of teams: offensive, reboundiong, FTA, balanced and defense just does not matter.   It seems to me if you dont have the follwoing players on your team then you cant win:

PG BILLUPS
SG ALLEN
SF BIRD
PF BARKLEY
C MALONE

That is bad.  I think it is just time for me to move on to one of WhatIfs competitors, like SportSims.net.  It is football, but at least defense matters.

Solson defense is a team thing not an individual in the SIM.  Its not about your defensive rating its about limiting opportunites for your opponent.  So that means rebounding, having low TOs and Fouls and some blocks (don't need alot).  That's why they say defense is so over valued. 
9/1/2010 3:26 PM
airstilt
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My first championship team was a defense first team, no one on the roster was below 80 defender. This was before the big update in 07 (or was it 08?). Since that update, defense has been completely useless. Now you pretty much have to go for offense, rebounds and 3 pt shooting. Sadly OP, I completely agree with you. Honestly with the way the current sim works, if you want a defensive team, its better to focus on blocks and steals than the defensive ratings, although you are still likely to be at a signifigant disadvantage to someone who built their team around offensive efficiency. At least from my personal experience. The way the defensive ratings are right now, Id honestly rather they just be taken out completely if they arent gonna fix them.
9/1/2010 3:43 PM (edited)
longtallbrad
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It surely is a fixable problem, since the sim used to operate very differently.  Back about two and a half years ago, I remember jose can u c won six (!) open league titles in a row with the same lineup, which included Thurmond, Kidd, Moncrief, and Russell (I forget who the SF was).  I have to think defense had a much bigger impact at the time.  That team might struggle to make the playoffs now.
9/1/2010 4:19 PM
solson
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Posted by eleibowitz on 9/1/2010 3:26:00 PM (view original):
Posted by solson on 9/1/2010 2:26:00 PM (view original):

Thanks for the summary.  I appreciate it.  I have built all kinds of teams: offensive, reboundiong, FTA, balanced and defense just does not matter.   It seems to me if you dont have the follwoing players on your team then you cant win:

PG BILLUPS
SG ALLEN
SF BIRD
PF BARKLEY
C MALONE

That is bad.  I think it is just time for me to move on to one of WhatIfs competitors, like SportSims.net.  It is football, but at least defense matters.

Solson defense is a team thing not an individual in the SIM.  Its not about your defensive rating its about limiting opportunites for your opponent.  So that means rebounding, having low TOs and Fouls and some blocks (don't need alot).  That's why they say defense is so over valued. 

I do not mind it being overvalued, but Defensive rating is IRRELEVANT.  NBA championship teams are ALL defensive teams.  The way the sim works now the Maverick and Suns would have more championships than the Bulls, Pistons, and Jackson led Lakers, combined.  That is not a good sim and why I will be moving on to competitors.

9/1/2010 4:21 PM
ashamael
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It's not irrelevant.  It's just very far down the chain as to what's most important.  Right or wrong, that's how it is.  There is a definite impact of defense, it's just not as big of impact as you'd like.  You need to look no further than the funk52 (now it's the ncih52) draft to see that defense does actually do something.  It actually does something in all caps, but you can get away with having huge defensive liabilities if you get more possessions than your opponent and shoot way better.

Also, that team you posted of billups, etc, is complete and utter crap for more reasons than I care to take time to explain.  But most championship teams have one or two of those players, not all.  And you're missing the best one (Rodman).  That line-up you listed actually is a very good defensive unit, though (80-50something-90something-60something-80something)
9/1/2010 4:51 PM
solson
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I did not say that you needed that lineup.  You as many of players you can get on your team.  Every league I have ever been in those players are on the championship teams.  With all the players in NBA history, those 5 players should not be the ONLY gateway to a championship.  And a big part of that is that defense does not matter.  It is the only away explain that Jordan and Russell are not on that list.  They are the biggest winners in league history and their games begin and end with defense.
9/1/2010 7:08 PM (edited)
ashamael
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I have won without a single one of those guys on my team.  I have seen many others win without them.  Think what you want, but defense does do something.  It just doesn't do enough.  I've said it often around here:  Defense is literally the 8th or 9th thing I look at when building a team.

ps - Jordan absolutely rapes this sim.  Some of the best anti-cookie teams have Jordan on them.  Both the 88-89 and the 89-90 versions are brutal.  The 95-96 version is a good bargain, too.  The reason Russell isn't used as much has nothing to do with defense and everything to do with his subpar fg%.
9/1/2010 8:13 PM
abrondon
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Back in the day I had a team that was made up entirely of 100 D guys (before the cap was strangely set at 96).  We got crushed on the boards, outrebounded by 20 per game, and ran a slow-down offense, but still won 60 games.  Now a slow-down D approach is almost impossible to win with. 

But we're all in the same boat, and at least changing player salaries will stir things up for awhile.  The sim logic will still have its shortcomings, but we'll probably have a nice honeymoon period before the new cookie cutters get figured out.
9/1/2010 9:42 PM
felonius
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Posted by solson on 9/1/2010 2:26:00 PM (view original):

Thanks for the summary.  I appreciate it.  I have built all kinds of teams: offensive, reboundiong, FTA, balanced and defense just does not matter.   It seems to me if you dont have the follwoing players on your team then you cant win:

PG BILLUPS
SG ALLEN
SF BIRD
PF BARKLEY
C MALONE

That is bad.  I think it is just time for me to move on to one of WhatIfs competitors, like SportSims.net.  It is football, but at least defense matters.

too much usage, immbalance in FTAs - throw in Ben Wallace and take out Larry Bird and you'll get a ring 1 in 3 tries

and your defense ratings may not have changed much at all... (everybody is in the 80s or better give or take a 50-60 hmmm...)

it matters, just not as much as it costs (or as some other factors...)
9/1/2010 10:48 PM (edited)
ashamael
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Troy Murphy instead of Bird
Reggie Miller (the 2800 minute, 18% usage one) instead of Allen...

You've got a great team working then.
9/1/2010 10:46 PM
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