Out of Position Penalty Topic

fillies
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Johnny dots had a topic on this that i can't find since the new forum update. Anyone know where I can find it?
7/23/2010 7:55 PM
theyard2
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www.whatifsports.com/forums/threads.asp
7/23/2010 8:35 PM
fillies
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Posted by theyard2 on 7/23/2010 8:35:00 PM (view original):
www.whatifsports.com/forums/threads.asp
Thanks Yard
7/24/2010 7:12 AM
rback
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Does the Bill James Defensive Spectrum penalize in either direction or just clockwise or counterclockwise. A C C second baseman will be C- C- at third base or will he remain C C
8/21/2010 12:49 PM
thunder1008
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All players get penalized when they play out of position.  Whether they're assessed an additional penalty on top of that depends on whether or not they are moving to a more difficult position.  It's not strictly a question of clockwise or counterclockwise.  The order, in terms of degree of difficulty (excluding pitchers) is listed below.  If you move down the list, you are moving to a more difficult position and assessed additional penalties beyond the out of position penalty.  If you move up the list, you're not.

DH
1B
LF
RF
3B
CF
2B
SS
C
8/22/2010 8:30 PM
markeking
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My understanding is that the above link to the old forum will soon become inoperative.  To guard against losing any of Johnny's collected wisdom, I'm going to cut and paste the initial posts from the linked thread to this one.  Even if the link continues to work, it might be helpful to have the guts of the prior thread all here in one place.

8/26/2010 3:35 PM
markeking
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JohnGPF

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[From the FAQ]
If a player without any fielding grades listed for a particular position is inserted into that position, his skills at his primary position are translated to the new position. A designated hitter that did not play in the field is treated as a D-/D- first baseman. He is then slapped with a mandatory out of position penalty. From there, he is penalized for each spot he moves to the left on the Bill James' Defensive Spectrum. For example, moving Ozzie Smith from SS to 2B would still yield an above average 2B. Moving Jim Thome to SS, on the other hand, would result in an atrocious SS. Moving Thome to LF would not be as drastic a penalty since SS is a more difficult position.

[from the 10/13/05 Developer Chat]

Hi, If understand correctly, you use the Bill James defensive spectrum in your code. When it comes to moving players who are ranked at one position to one that they are not, how does this affect them. Can I play a Catcher at 3B with minimal damage? How about LF? Could my A-/A+ AAA Shortstop excel in CF? I guess what I am really asking is how exactly do you figure out the fielding rates of out of position players?

Anytime a player is put in a position he didn't play that season, his fielding percentage is mapped to the new position (maintaininig the same level of play). Then he is assigned a 2% penalty to his fielding percentage. Each shift along the spectrum results in an additional 4% hit. The likelihood of turning double plays for out of position players also decreases. Putting a non-catcher behind the plate will result in many successful steals along with a ton of passed balls. Catchers are a special case, so we assign shift penalties based on the position they will be playing.

Besides his fielding percentage, does moving a player to a position he does not play affect his range? Will an A 2B who didn't play 2B that year be an A CF?

Range works the same way with different penalty values. 10% hit for being out of position, and a 15% hit for each shift on the spectrum (in the more difficult direction).

8/26/2010 3:39 PM
markeking
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JohnGPF

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...the bill james defensive spectrum:

  1. Designated Hitter
  2. First baseman
  3. Left fielder
  4. Right fielder
  5. Third baseman
  6. Center fielder
  7. Second baseman
  8. Shortstop
  9. Catcher
  10. Pitcher

...C and pitcher are considered special cases...catcher is in a class by itself, and james considers pitching to be part of defense in his spectrum, but since you can't play them out of position yet in WIS it doesn't matter how they might be treated here...

...also in WIS, LF and RF are considered as occupying the same place on the spectrum and all OFers can move to any other OF spot without a penalty, but the penalty for a 3Bman moving to CF is greater than that for him moving to RF or LF...

...as the spectrum is listed here, the more difficult direction is down, the easier up...

...an important part of the theory of the spectrum from james' standpoint is that in a career of any length one will likely see shifts in a player's primary position up the spectrum and only rarely see it down...he also believes there was a shift in the spectrum with 2B and 3B changing spots as DPs became more important...he would predict hornsby as a 3Bman today and schmidt as a 2Bman back in hornsby's time...

8/26/2010 3:41 PM
markeking
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JohnGPF

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...so the WIS defensive spectrum would be:

  1. Designated Hitter
  2. First base
  3. Left field/Right field
  4. Third base
  5. Center field
  6. Second base
  7. Shortstop

 *.   Catcher

8/26/2010 3:42 PM
markeking
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JohnGPF

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...i think the CF penalty only applies when an unrated DH or 1Bman plays CF...but admin's been unclear about that in the past...so i think your OFers would get the standard OOP penalty plus hits for moving from the OF past 3B and 2B to SS...so 4 hits altogether...i do not think they would be recognized as a CFer moving past 2B to 3B which would be 3 hits...
8/26/2010 3:45 PM
Out of Position Penalty Topic
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