Here's something else I think needs to be mentioned... not all "great" defensive teams have had all-nba defenders at every position.  Take a look at the 07-08 Celtics, for example.  That team was a fantastic defensive team.  But it had Ray Allen, who played a lot of minutes.  The "Bad Boys" Pistons of the late 80s were known for their defense, yet they had Dantley, Mark Aguirre, and Vinnie Johnson all playing significant minutes.

So a good defensive team isn't necessarily all 90s.  A good defensive team has a good mix of 80s & 90s with a 50 or a pair of 60s mixed in.

here's a good example:

Name	Pos	Salary	Per%	Mid%	Pnt%	Def Rtg	PG Eff%	SG Eff%	SF Eff%	PF Eff%	C Eff%
08-09 LeBron James	SF	$9,856,717	24	41	35	94	88	100	100	90	80
78-79 Moses Malone	C	$8,999,416	4	23	73	80	60	70	81	100	100
08-09 Jason Kidd	PG	$6,831,223	52	24	23	95	100	90	80	70	60
94-95 Dennis Rodman	PF	$4,170,164	1	14	85	96	70	80	90	100	100
01-02 Reggie Miller	SG	$3,778,354	49	30	22	31	96	100	100	80	70
79-80 Mark Landsberger	C	$3,266,715	0	20	80	71	60	70	82	100	100
03-04 Charlie Ward	PG	$1,594,371	53	26	21	83	100	100	81	70	60
00-01 Toni Kukoc	SF	$994,556	31	35	33	44	80	92	100	100	83
98-99 Charles Shackleford	C	$935,694	0	41	59	71	60	70	80	100	100
98-99 Sam Mack	SF	$778,735	65	19	17	17	81	100	100	91	80
73-74 Swen Nater	C	$534,177	0	37	63	64	60	70	80	100	100
88-89 Sidney Lowe	SG	$253,668	8	46	46	76	100	100	90	80	70

This is a current team of mine that is 61-19 & has the best record in the league.  How is this not a defensive team?  My shooting guards are weak defensively (MIller & Mack), and Kukoc doesn't play defense for the 7 minutes he's in the game, but every other position has good defense throughout the rotation. My opponents are shooting just 47.6% from the field (not good by real life standards), but that's good for first in the league.  By a long shot, actually:  Number two is 48.3%. 

It's all relative.  Everyone's offenses are outrageous, so everyone's defense will suffer.

The range of fg% in the above OL go from a couple of terrible teams at 44% to 54%.  13 of the teams shoot 50% or better.
Compare that to a $52M, where the low is 47.7% and the high is 51.8%.  reason for that?  More salary for more defense.

Usg% is just something you tweak along the way to make sure it's not too low or too high once all the pieces are in place. 

I tend to rely on combined rebounding %s, efg%, 3PM, PFs, TOs, and FTAs.  Really a mix of percentages and totals.  By the time I'm satisfied with all those levels, then I'll make sure my squad isn't in particularly bad shape defensively.

You're right... more advanced strategy involves configuring usage to get the best out of your most important players.  I've been slower to learn this lesson than some other owners.

1a)  efg%
1b)  creb% (combined rebounding percentage, oreb% + dreb%)
3)  offensive distribution - usage%, by-zone scoring (paint/mid/perimeter), threes & FTAS.  I won't tell you everything here, but felonius and brad both hinted strongly at it.  This is where most of my work goes into a team.
4)  ast%.  While this isn't dire (I've done teams with as low as 50% combined on the floor), I like having more of it to help boost fg%
5)  tov%  This has fallen way down the list since I can get way ahead on the possession arrow with rebounds... much further than turnovers.  Still, it's something to look at.
6)  Fouls.  I like low foul teams.  But there are some players with high fouls that excel... you just have to know which ones to use and when to use them.
7)  I used to put blk% here... but it really doesn't do much.  Still, I look at it before defense.
8)  Defense!  I have certain trends I like to follow, but I don't always strictly adhere to them... the first 6 things on the list are far more important to me.
9)  Stl%... imo the absolute most worthless stat in the sim.  I've never skipped on a player because of his stl%.  It's nice to have, but it really isn't all that.  There's very ltittle difference between the best (Alvin Robertson, Don Buse) and the average (Barkley).  And most of those 4% stl% guys have huge downfalls.

That's pretty much my prioritization.  1a & 1b are the most important, but I spend the most time on 3.  I think that's where the difference is between my teams and a lot of the so-called cookie monsters.

Folks,

If I can jump in here a little...

I can empathize with you, Solson---I'm new here, and my first team attempt was Russell, Marion, James, Bell, Bynum (90 def), Nash & a platoon of point guards & other back-ups.  Finished with 45 wins, but out of the playoffs, and I was definitely surprised that defense wasn't a bigger factor.  ..but the insight I had (later) was that because players can move to different positions on defense depending on the stats of the opposition, you can hide at least one or two players on the defensive side, so maxing out def for all 5 positions wastes money even if you're giving that high priority, unless you're facing a really balanced opponent.

Another thought that occurred to me is that I wonder if def rating impacts lesser quality opposition more than high quality opposition.  In reality, Shaq or Jordan (or Bird or Wilt, etc.) in their prime could score against anyone; but maybe the secondary players would be shut down by quality defenders, but get their points against weaker opposition.  I doubt the simulation works in this way, but it would be one way to think of how defense works here in a way that makes sense.  Just a thought....

PS: Ash--I've really enjoyed reading your posts, and have learned a lot!  

I really enjoy WIS as a game, but I no longer consider it an effective reflection of true basketball (although their NBA sim comes closer to reality than their NFL sim, which is completely out of whack). 

The lynch-pin for me that their current program is problematic is the fact that their NBA playoff prediction had Portland making the NBA Finals something like 68% of the time, and that was AFTER factoring in injuries going into the post-season, which left them decimated (in real life).  That says to me that the salary scale really isn't the problem so much as the sim logic. 

Still, it's a fun game to play and I enjoy it because we are all strategizing under the same rules, but I don't consider it at all reality based in pitting era V era, player V player, etc.

Posted by ashamael on 9/2/2010 4:54:00 PM (view original):
1a)  efg%
1b)  creb% (combined rebounding percentage, oreb% + dreb%)
3)  offensive distribution - usage%, by-zone scoring (paint/mid/perimeter), threes & FTAS.  I won't tell you everything here, but felonius and brad both hinted strongly at it.  This is where most of my work goes into a team.
4)  ast%.  While this isn't dire (I've done teams with as low as 50% combined on the floor), I like having more of it to help boost fg%
5)  tov%  This has fallen way down the list since I can get way ahead on the possession arrow with rebounds... much further than turnovers.  Still, it's something to look at.
6)  Fouls.  I like low foul teams.  But there are some players with high fouls that excel... you just have to know which ones to use and when to use them.
7)  I used to put blk% here... but it really doesn't do much.  Still, I look at it before defense.
8)  Defense!  I have certain trends I like to follow, but I don't always strictly adhere to them... the first 6 things on the list are far more important to me.
9)  Stl%... imo the absolute most worthless stat in the sim.  I've never skipped on a player because of his stl%.  It's nice to have, but it really isn't all that.  There's very ltittle difference between the best (Alvin Robertson, Don Buse) and the average (Barkley).  And most of those 4% stl% guys have huge downfalls.

That's pretty much my prioritization.  1a & 1b are the most important, but I spend the most time on 3.  I think that's where the difference is between my teams and a lot of the so-called cookie monsters.

Ashamael,

Thanks for the priorities.  I appreciate it. 

What is goal numbers for the team/players for those list?  Specifically:  How much usage% do you shoot for?  How much creb% per team.player?  What is your bottom line and Ideal eFG%?  

it's really irrelevant b/c the changes in the salary structure will render most of those cookie-cutter totals obsolete (as in, they will be absolutely unreachable).

As for usage, unless I'm trying something crazy (like making someone score way more than they did IRL or trying to make someone get a triple double), I typically aim for one guy over 27.5% usage, another over 22.1% and then a couple between 17.6% and 22.0%.  Though a third guy over 22.1% isn't bad, just be careful that you don't do that AND have the other two guys in the 17.6/22.0 bracket.  The fifth guy is almost always a piece of trash, high fouling-low usage rebounder.  I don't actually do a "composite usage" like many players here... I think it's silly. 

Thanks so much ashamael.

Defense is usually the last item I look at when building a team. I look to fill certain roles and if a player with high defense fills the role, so be it. If I have no defenders over 80, oh well. I've taken teams to the finals with no defense just as often as teams that have had some defense on them. An all defensive team in this sim will fail though.

Posted by solson on 9/1/2010 12:36:00 PM (view original):

The defensive ratings dont matter.  I build the following team:

		Def Rtg
76-77 Don Buse	PG	90
88-89 Michael Jordan	SG	95
06-07 Raja Bell	SG	90
71-72 Dave DeBusschere	PF	90
88-89 Mark Eaton	C	90

I am giving up:

112.3 points per game
50.6% FG %
and have had a 30+ point scorer against me in every game.

This is making me not want to play the game anymore. If defense does not matter then it is not like real life and then what is the point?

I would love to hear other peoples thoughts.

I just reconstructed your team, to see what was up, and this is what I found:

WiS is very much a STAT based sim, and your team has some glaring problems that would be obvious IRL and on the sim.

Problem 1:  Scoring.

The Jordan you grabbed is maybe the best one on one player of all time, but I'd have no problems doubling him all night, and seeing if don Buse can beat me.  Answer:  He won't. 

Here's how your top 5 breaks down in terms of usage:

Eaton:  9.2%  Pretty much tip-ins and put backs, and no range.  Not an efficient scorer, and has a negative TO ratio.

DeBusschere: 19.5 %  Horribly inefficient shooter, with a worse eFG than Eaton!   The worst part is that while he's shooting his Barkleyesque 3s, he's not actually contributing his real strength, which is above average rebounding.  I'm not saying I'd let him shoot all day, every day, but it's pretty close. 

Jordan 32.1%   Efficient inside scorer, but if you're playing him as a SG, but I'd have no problem doubling, or maybe even tripling Jordan at all times.  Let Buse and Eaton beat me...

Bell  17%   Bell's a fun little piece, and would probably be the only person I'd keep on a defense first team.  He's not a crack shot, but his high perimeter percentage makes him above average.

Buse  12%  I don't normally paraphrase or quote Adam Sandler movies, but "Don Buse sucks, he really really sucks."  He will give your around 3 fastbreak turnovers per game, but for 5.7 million, you could have the amazingly efficient Steve Nash, and rely on Eaton to mop up guys who beat Nash off the dribble.  With Buse, you're paying for minutes, steals, and a medicore TO/Ast ratio. 

Added up, your usage comes to...  89.8% as a team.  Much like not drafting enough minutes, you just don't have enough shots.  I'm not sure how the game adjusts for this, but if you take it as a strict percentage, it's just more Jordan, all day, every day. 

No interior scoring presence
One dimensional offence
Only one interior shot blocker  (DeBusschere seems to be a 3-4, defensively.  He might change shots, but he doesn't really block them.)
Only one real outside threat in Bell.
Buse is the only + passer. 

This all adds up to turnovers.  I don't care how good of a defender you are, you aren't stopping a 2 on 1 fast break.

I'm a big advocate of D, but whoever scores the most, wins.  And your team CANNOT play from behind.

Problem 2)  Bench

Your anemic starting five leaves you with 7.276 million left for 7 bench players.  While at least two of them can be 239 k specials, that still means you have to fill 5 roster spots worth of minutes with just 6.739 million to fill the following spots:

C:  13 MPG
PF: Around 11 MPG
SF: Around 8 MPG  (For Jordan)
SG:  Around 13 MPG
PG:  Around 13 MPG of sweet, non-Buse Nirvana

If I plug in your 90 DEF requirement, let's see what kind of quality I get on the bench if I spend 1.35 mil per player:

C:  No such player.  I can get Jim Mcilvaine at 62 Def; but the problem with that is that I'd have Jim McIlvaine as my back up C.  I only get him at 1.36 mil, though...

PF:  Cadillac Anderson at 82 Def, and a bit over-budget, but he also sucks.

SF:  Byron Rusell a bit under budget, but 94-95 was not his best year.  Also, only 79 Def.

SG:  Pete Myers and his explosive 36.8% from the field.  He'll give us our minutes, slightly over budget, bus besides being completely worthless of offense, he only gives us 64 Def.

PG:  Mark Macon is the first to come in close to budget.  He's like Buse, without the mintues.

Obviously, this is NOT a bench worth playing.  You honestly need about 10 million for a bench in this game.  Playing guys of this caliber for 8-13 MPG is NOT going to help anything.

Problem 3:  He'd be good against similar players...

But Eaton is probably guarding Shaq and Chamberlain.

Debusschere is fighting off Bird, and Barkley

Jordan is holding his own against Grant Hill in his prime and LBJ.

Bell is squaring up against Bryant and Jordan.

Buse is facing down Oscar Robinson and John Stockton.

Against players of their own skill level, or even slightly better, guys like Raja do fine.  But when Buse hand checks Gary Payton and the game checks to see how often Payton turns the ball over, and comes up with "Almost never", then Buse isn't stealing the ball.  Eaton might block Shaq 4 times in a game, but Shaq's still going to outscore him 30 - 4.

The point is that most of the teams you're playing are either going to have 5 perennial allstars, or 3 border line hall of famers.  Or, God help you, Wilt.  You're not stopping them if you have 124 Def.  That just leaves the counter attack.  And you're not winning there, either.

As always, balance is the key.  This teams is just kind good at staying in front of the ball on D.

nice breakdown.  But you have got a lot of stuff wrong.  You nailed the biggest part, though.