Was wondering what the thoughts are on using players out of position towards tanking. I'm in a few proggys with rules that players must play at a rated position and at least 1 that doesn't require it.
Do you consider it a form of tanking if someone plays players out of position which in turn may cause them to lose ballgames due to increased errors?

I think it's subjective. I've been playing a 3B for most of my SS needs this year, because I have two good 3B and couldn't get a good SS in the draft. So in my case, playing an out of position player is better for my team than scrounging up some AAA SS to fill the innings.

I can see, however, that it's possible to take advantage of that and tank by putting players out of position. I think the best ways to deal with this are by making a win floor for getting a high draft pick.

I also think it's subjective.....

I took over a sh*tty progressive team a few years ago. Averge sp's NO bullpen, 4 pretty good hitting of's, no 2b and a 0 field good hit 1b. Lacking a 2b, I put an of at the position. He hit @.320 30hr, but had @80 errors. (the player was a B/B, I kept the B/B+ in cf)

I felt playing the best offense gave me the best chance to win. You know, "out score 'em fellas!"Commish called me on it @game 100 saying tanking was not allowed. Gave him a very detailed sitemail, but he felt OOP players were "the devil". He felt I should have played my .180(real avg) hitting 2b fulltime, instead of as the defensive replacement. I thanked him for the honesty and let him know I would not be returning after the season. No hard feelings.

That being said, I have seen others doing strange things, but after going over their rosters, can see why some things are done. And obviously, I have also witnessed gross abuses of the system.... I sitemailed commish on one instance. FWIW

I personally would not join a progressive that won't allow OOP players, I enjoy it more when I can mix and match for the betterment of my team. I traded for ss Bill Russell in one of my progressives, then had the option of drafting Trammell the next draft. Since then, Russell has played 2b and some Lf w/ very good results. Am I tanking, nope, just mixing and matching, putting my best team out there to win...

I agree, I don't think you can make a blanket rule. I'm in one league where you can't do it at all and I'm constantly playing crappier players at 1B instead of my awesome OF who just rides the pine.

Seems like a very dumb rule to me. There are much betters ways of discouraging tanking. I would definitely not join a prog that had such a restriction.

Quote: Originally posted by contrarian23 on 9/26/2009
Seems like a very dumb rule to me.  There are much betters ways of discouraging tanking.  I would definitely not join a prog that had such a restriction.

Ditto.

What's more, the way to avoid the tanking issue altogether is to join a league where there's absolutely no reward whatsoever for losing games. Someone wants to play a 1B at CA, or start 0% pitchers when studs are riding the pine, that's their business. But why reward them at the end of the season with a high draft pick?

because it's a better simulation of real life

okay

There are a couple of problems I have with almost all anti-tanking rules.

Rules prohibiting playing players out of position assume the intent of doing so is to intentionally lose games. If the player pool is shallow - say, a single season, 24-team league progressing thru the late-60s, early-70s - there simply might be enough PAs to go around. If someone has excess PAs at a certain position it's likely someone else is lacking at that same position. Would you rather play a 45% player rated at a positon, or a 100% player who's not rated at that position? Which gives you the better chance of winning?

There are more ways to decrease your chances of winning than playing players oop. Make rules for every conceiveable behavior that might decrease a team's chance of winning?

I've seen owners juggle their rosters in a lot of interesting ways - some of it looked more suspect than playing players oop. All the progressives I'm in have some variation of worst-drafts-first, most have a wins floor, and a wins floor is about the only anti-tanking rules a league needs. Going much beyond that can make the league a pia.

Go beyond that and you get the kind of situation cpdpoet wrote about - the owner thinks he's getting the best out of his team, is trying to win, and the league tells him he's trying to tank.

I recently completed a progressive season where I played a player out of postion for the entire year. In 1969 Dick Allen does not play 3B, only 1B. Boog Powell was my other 1B. No DH. I also had Aurelio Rodriguez at 3B.

My options were:

• Powell or Allen at 1B and Rodriguez at 3B
• Platoon Powell & Allen with Rodriguez
• Powell at 1B & Allen at 3B

My choice was to play both Powell and Allen, heres my results:

Batting Stats:

• Powell batted .301 with 45 HRs
• Allen batted .299 with 44 HRs
• Rodriquez batted .239 with 0 HRs (with limited playing time)

3B Fielding Stats:

• Allen (not rated) .944 +0/-10
• Rodriguez (B/A) .967 +0/-0

Dick Allen will never be known as a defensive star. But this out of position season, was his 2nd best fielding seasons for me in this progressive.

I believe I made the right decision to play Allen out of position. It made my team stronger, which in turn made the league better. To say that using a player out of position is tanking, isn't always right or fair.

I would have to agree with it being subjective as well. Does it help your team by adding a better bat to the lineup or does it hurt by having the weaker glove?
An argument can be made either way but I'm guessing it depends on the player and his stats.
What about position? Which position is being filled by the OOP probably has a bigger impact as well, Right? Someone filling a catchers spot with an outfielder would be worse than a 1B playing 3B or a SS playing 2B. Is there a factor within the sim engine that determines the difference between those examples?

Of course. Search the forums for out of position. Generally, the idea is that you see less OOP penalty when a player moves to an easier-to-play position. I'm surprised that Allen wasn't worse at third, but I've seen third basemen play extremely well at second and catchers handle third just fine....

well I would appreciate any insight as to whether my thought of using the 48 Lou Boudreau at second would be a disaster or not? My draft dates (random birthday league) gave me squat at 2b and a wealth of ss.

I'm all for anything that makes a league more competitive. Having OOP players gives the GM another tool to use to build a squad with. Right now I have the top team in the ABA II prog league and the team features Todd Helton at LF and Jason Giambi (C/D- at 1B) at RF. There are a dozen ways to tank a team. If it's not OOP fielding, it'll be something else. Let 'em put the players where they want.

If you want to talk about realism, as an A's fan I was forced to watch Bobby Crosby, a so-so shortstop, play 3B 39 times this season because there was no other option there. He hadn't played the hot corner since college and it was a very painful and very real dilemma.

48 Boudreau will be fine at 2B. Something like B/B I'd guess.