Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:25:00 PM (view original):
And what exactly do union workers do that merits a 50% kicker to their pay?

Besides strike, that is.

That's the point. Unionizing gives workers leverage to negotiate that they don't have on their own.

You mean, "unionizing gives (******) workers leverage THEIR WORK DOESN'T MERIT".

In the robber baron days, maybe unions helped the downtrodden find unity and negotiating strength. Nowadays, they find that through Twitter and other social media

Unions have outlived their utility.

Merit is a factor of leverage.

Without it, anyone's work merits very little pay.

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:25:00 PM (view original):
And what exactly do union workers do that merits a 50% kicker to their pay?

Besides strike, that is.

That's the point. Unionizing gives workers leverage to negotiate that they don't have on their own.

You mean, "unionizing gives (******) workers leverage THEIR WORK DOESN'T MERIT".

In the robber baron days, maybe unions helped the downtrodden find unity and negotiating strength. Nowadays, they find that through Twitter and other social media

Unions have outlived their utility.

Merit is a factor of leverage.

Without it, anyone's work merits very little pay.

Maybe in your world. In a skilled labor force, supply and demand are working fine without the interference of unions.

In the semi-skilled labor force, unions are artificially inflating costs without providing significant additional benefits, which is why automation is overtaking semi-skilled labor as the cost-effective solution.

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:25:00 PM (view original):
And what exactly do union workers do that merits a 50% kicker to their pay?

Besides strike, that is.

That's the point. Unionizing gives workers leverage to negotiate that they don't have on their own.

You mean, "unionizing gives (******) workers leverage THEIR WORK DOESN'T MERIT".

In the robber baron days, maybe unions helped the downtrodden find unity and negotiating strength. Nowadays, they find that through Twitter and other social media

Unions have outlived their utility.

Merit is a factor of leverage.

Without it, anyone's work merits very little pay.

Maybe in your world. In a skilled labor force, supply and demand are working fine without the interference of unions.

In the semi-skilled labor force, unions are artificially inflating costs without providing significant additional benefits, which is why automation is overtaking semi-skilled labor as the cost-effective solution.

My world??? The entire world. The employment market is opaque. You don't usually don't know what other people make, what other companies pay for the same positions, etc. When you go into an interview and start negotiating salary, leverage is HUGE. When you are up for a promotion or are considering taking a position at another company, leverage is HUGE.

For semi-skilled workers who can be easily replaced by another semi-skilled worker, there is no leverage without a union. These semi-skilled, easily replaced workers in WI, MI, PA, WV, etc., are the people Trump was talking to when he promised to bring back jobs. They're expecting union type pay for those jobs. Without a union, they won't get it.

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 3/8/2017 1:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 3/8/2017 1:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 3/8/2017 1:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 12:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 12:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 3/8/2017 12:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 12:37:00 PM (view original):
haha. Way to try to change the subject.

Oh, that subject. $11 an hour, really?

Boeing moved it's manufacturing to South Carolina to avoid unions... They pay their SC workers $20+ per hour and including benefits about $80k/yr. Last month there was a vote to become unionized that was heavily shot down. I wonder why, if they'd make so much more in unions.

$11/hr????

Um, $20 per hour is not $80k per year. It's about $40k.

You think "votes" to unionize get shot down because workers don't want to unionize or because the company puts pressure on the workers not to do it?

Think about it this way, if workers would NOT earn more as a union, why would Boeing go through all the trouble to move its operation "to avoid unions?"

Because negotiating with unions is a YUUUUGE waste of time, resources, and money. Why would any company want to deal with that? The companies know if the wages they offer employees are too low the employee will work elsewhere. They don't need unions to tell them that.

They moved to save money because they pay the WA plant workers $10 more an hour than they pay the SC plant workers.

It's Boeing's right to move, but don't try to tell me the workers are better off not in the union, because that's bullshit.

Apples to apples.

They pay those employees in WA $10 more because the cost of living is sooo much higher in Seattle. Why do I make so much more in Chicago than someone who does the exact same thing for the same company in Peoria IL?

Cost of living is only 6% higher at the WA plant.

Here's Amazon... Looks like it's on par with Boeing, eh?


Amazon.com Inc Median Hourly Rate by City

City
Seattle, Washington $24.20
Moreno Valley, California $13.86
San Bernardino, California $14.27
Hebron, Kentucky $15.80
Phoenix, Arizona $17.47
Columbia, South Carolina $13.76
Indianapolis, Indiana $16.33

Amazon is in Seattle. Boeing is in Everett. That's like saying Chicago is the same as Gary, IN.

Quit arguing in bad faith.

Actually it's not like Gary IN, a hellhole in a totally different state. Everett has a median income of $50,000. Lord knows if Gary is even half that.

it's more like Chicago and Schaumburg IL which wages are pretty similar.

But let's not forget your original argument that non union jobs will make manufacturing pay $11 an hour. Doesn't appear that way to me.


The Boeing Company Median Hourly Rate by City

City
Seattle, Washington $32.40
Everett, Washington $27.21
Charleston, South Carolina $21.82
St. Louis, Missouri $28.06
North Charleston, South Carolina $23.38
Renton, Washington $21.60
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma $37.19

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 2:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:25:00 PM (view original):
And what exactly do union workers do that merits a 50% kicker to their pay?

Besides strike, that is.

That's the point. Unionizing gives workers leverage to negotiate that they don't have on their own.

You mean, "unionizing gives (******) workers leverage THEIR WORK DOESN'T MERIT".

In the robber baron days, maybe unions helped the downtrodden find unity and negotiating strength. Nowadays, they find that through Twitter and other social media

Unions have outlived their utility.

Merit is a factor of leverage.

Without it, anyone's work merits very little pay.

Maybe in your world. In a skilled labor force, supply and demand are working fine without the interference of unions.

In the semi-skilled labor force, unions are artificially inflating costs without providing significant additional benefits, which is why automation is overtaking semi-skilled labor as the cost-effective solution.

My world??? The entire world. The employment market is opaque. You don't usually don't know what other people make, what other companies pay for the same positions, etc. When you go into an interview and start negotiating salary, leverage is HUGE. When you are up for a promotion or are considering taking a position at another company, leverage is HUGE.

For semi-skilled workers who can be easily replaced by another semi-skilled worker, there is no leverage without a union. These semi-skilled, easily replaced workers in WI, MI, PA, WV, etc., are the people Trump was talking to when he promised to bring back jobs. They're expecting union type pay for those jobs. Without a union, they won't get it.

Glassdoor.com
indeed.com
Salary.com
Pay scale.com


You ever hear of the internet? I can get you wages for any job and any company.

Posted by moy23 on 3/8/2017 2:04:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 3/8/2017 1:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:23:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 3/8/2017 1:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:06:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 3/8/2017 1:00:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 12:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 12:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 3/8/2017 12:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 12:37:00 PM (view original):
haha. Way to try to change the subject.

Oh, that subject. $11 an hour, really?

Boeing moved it's manufacturing to South Carolina to avoid unions... They pay their SC workers $20+ per hour and including benefits about $80k/yr. Last month there was a vote to become unionized that was heavily shot down. I wonder why, if they'd make so much more in unions.

$11/hr????

Um, $20 per hour is not $80k per year. It's about $40k.

You think "votes" to unionize get shot down because workers don't want to unionize or because the company puts pressure on the workers not to do it?

Think about it this way, if workers would NOT earn more as a union, why would Boeing go through all the trouble to move its operation "to avoid unions?"

Because negotiating with unions is a YUUUUGE waste of time, resources, and money. Why would any company want to deal with that? The companies know if the wages they offer employees are too low the employee will work elsewhere. They don't need unions to tell them that.

They moved to save money because they pay the WA plant workers $10 more an hour than they pay the SC plant workers.

It's Boeing's right to move, but don't try to tell me the workers are better off not in the union, because that's bullshit.

Apples to apples.

They pay those employees in WA $10 more because the cost of living is sooo much higher in Seattle. Why do I make so much more in Chicago than someone who does the exact same thing for the same company in Peoria IL?

Cost of living is only 6% higher at the WA plant.

Here's Amazon... Looks like it's on par with Boeing, eh?


Amazon.com Inc Median Hourly Rate by City

City
Seattle, Washington $24.20
Moreno Valley, California $13.86
San Bernardino, California $14.27
Hebron, Kentucky $15.80
Phoenix, Arizona $17.47
Columbia, South Carolina $13.76
Indianapolis, Indiana $16.33

Amazon is in Seattle. Boeing is in Everett. That's like saying Chicago is the same as Gary, IN.

Quit arguing in bad faith.

Actually it's not like Gary IN, a hellhole in a totally different state. Everett has a median income of $50,000. Lord knows if Gary is even half that.

it's more like Chicago and Schaumburg IL which wages are pretty similar.

But let's not forget your original argument that non union jobs will make manufacturing pay $11 an hour. Doesn't appear that way to me.


The Boeing Company Median Hourly Rate by City

City
Seattle, Washington $32.40
Everett, Washington $27.21
Charleston, South Carolina $21.82
St. Louis, Missouri $28.06
North Charleston, South Carolina $23.38
Renton, Washington $21.60
Oklahoma City, Oklahoma $37.19

"Boeing employees in the company's South Carolina facility make an average of $10 less per hour than similar employees in the company's Everett plant.

The company recently released that information to a South Carolina newspaper ahead of a vote over whether the Machinists at the North Charleston 787 Dreamliner plant should unionize."

...

"The average wage for North Charleston production and maintenance workers is $20.59 per hour, or $42,827 a year. In Everett, workers averaged $30.67 an hour last August, which will rise to $32.05 in September, according to Machinists spokeswoman Connie Kelliher.

While the cost of living in Western Washington is higher, a CNN cost-of-living calculator shows it's only about 6 percent more expensive to live in Everett than in the Charleston-North Charleston area."

Boeing moved to reduce labor costs. The SC workers would be better off if they unionized.

Posted by moy23 on 3/8/2017 2:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 2:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:25:00 PM (view original):
And what exactly do union workers do that merits a 50% kicker to their pay?

Besides strike, that is.

That's the point. Unionizing gives workers leverage to negotiate that they don't have on their own.

You mean, "unionizing gives (******) workers leverage THEIR WORK DOESN'T MERIT".

In the robber baron days, maybe unions helped the downtrodden find unity and negotiating strength. Nowadays, they find that through Twitter and other social media

Unions have outlived their utility.

Merit is a factor of leverage.

Without it, anyone's work merits very little pay.

Maybe in your world. In a skilled labor force, supply and demand are working fine without the interference of unions.

In the semi-skilled labor force, unions are artificially inflating costs without providing significant additional benefits, which is why automation is overtaking semi-skilled labor as the cost-effective solution.

My world??? The entire world. The employment market is opaque. You don't usually don't know what other people make, what other companies pay for the same positions, etc. When you go into an interview and start negotiating salary, leverage is HUGE. When you are up for a promotion or are considering taking a position at another company, leverage is HUGE.

For semi-skilled workers who can be easily replaced by another semi-skilled worker, there is no leverage without a union. These semi-skilled, easily replaced workers in WI, MI, PA, WV, etc., are the people Trump was talking to when he promised to bring back jobs. They're expecting union type pay for those jobs. Without a union, they won't get it.

Glassdoor.com
indeed.com
Salary.com
Pay scale.com


You ever hear of the internet? I can get you wages for any job and any company.

No, you get an estimate. My account manager makes $78k a year and she's getting a big raise this year. If you check those sites for my company at that position, you see a range of $50k-$60k. Why does she make more? A) she's good but also B) she had another offer when we hired her. She started way above the normal range because she had leverage.

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 2:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 3/8/2017 2:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 2:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:25:00 PM (view original):
And what exactly do union workers do that merits a 50% kicker to their pay?

Besides strike, that is.

That's the point. Unionizing gives workers leverage to negotiate that they don't have on their own.

You mean, "unionizing gives (******) workers leverage THEIR WORK DOESN'T MERIT".

In the robber baron days, maybe unions helped the downtrodden find unity and negotiating strength. Nowadays, they find that through Twitter and other social media

Unions have outlived their utility.

Merit is a factor of leverage.

Without it, anyone's work merits very little pay.

Maybe in your world. In a skilled labor force, supply and demand are working fine without the interference of unions.

In the semi-skilled labor force, unions are artificially inflating costs without providing significant additional benefits, which is why automation is overtaking semi-skilled labor as the cost-effective solution.

My world??? The entire world. The employment market is opaque. You don't usually don't know what other people make, what other companies pay for the same positions, etc. When you go into an interview and start negotiating salary, leverage is HUGE. When you are up for a promotion or are considering taking a position at another company, leverage is HUGE.

For semi-skilled workers who can be easily replaced by another semi-skilled worker, there is no leverage without a union. These semi-skilled, easily replaced workers in WI, MI, PA, WV, etc., are the people Trump was talking to when he promised to bring back jobs. They're expecting union type pay for those jobs. Without a union, they won't get it.

Glassdoor.com
indeed.com
Salary.com
Pay scale.com


You ever hear of the internet? I can get you wages for any job and any company.

No, you get an estimate. My account manager makes $78k a year and she's getting a big raise this year. If you check those sites for my company at that position, you see a range of $50k-$60k. Why does she make more? A) she's good but also B) she had another offer when we hired her. She started way above the normal range because she had leverage.

You're missing my point. If you are semi-skilled and easily replaceable, YOU DON'T HAVE ANY LEVERAGE, NOR SHOULD YOU.

Having a union artificially inflate your pay scale hurts literally everyone who isn't in the union by raising prices without raising quality. When you add in the decreased incentive to excel at your job because of union rules, you end up with an unmotivated, easily replaced, overpaid workforce producing substandard products. Welcome to BadLuck's America!

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 2:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 3/8/2017 2:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 2:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:35:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 1:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 1:25:00 PM (view original):
And what exactly do union workers do that merits a 50% kicker to their pay?

Besides strike, that is.

That's the point. Unionizing gives workers leverage to negotiate that they don't have on their own.

You mean, "unionizing gives (******) workers leverage THEIR WORK DOESN'T MERIT".

In the robber baron days, maybe unions helped the downtrodden find unity and negotiating strength. Nowadays, they find that through Twitter and other social media

Unions have outlived their utility.

Merit is a factor of leverage.

Without it, anyone's work merits very little pay.

Maybe in your world. In a skilled labor force, supply and demand are working fine without the interference of unions.

In the semi-skilled labor force, unions are artificially inflating costs without providing significant additional benefits, which is why automation is overtaking semi-skilled labor as the cost-effective solution.

My world??? The entire world. The employment market is opaque. You don't usually don't know what other people make, what other companies pay for the same positions, etc. When you go into an interview and start negotiating salary, leverage is HUGE. When you are up for a promotion or are considering taking a position at another company, leverage is HUGE.

For semi-skilled workers who can be easily replaced by another semi-skilled worker, there is no leverage without a union. These semi-skilled, easily replaced workers in WI, MI, PA, WV, etc., are the people Trump was talking to when he promised to bring back jobs. They're expecting union type pay for those jobs. Without a union, they won't get it.

Glassdoor.com
indeed.com
Salary.com
Pay scale.com


You ever hear of the internet? I can get you wages for any job and any company.

No, you get an estimate. My account manager makes $78k a year and she's getting a big raise this year. If you check those sites for my company at that position, you see a range of $50k-$60k. Why does she make more? A) she's good but also B) she had another offer when we hired her. She started way above the normal range because she had leverage.

So how did she get leverage without a union? Account Managers are not that tough to replace. How do you know she didn't negotiate better than a union could do?

For semi-skilled workers who can be easily replaced by another semi-skilled worker, there is no leverage without a union

That whizzing sound you hear is the point passing over your head.

If you're unskilled, you should learn a skill. If you're expendable, you should try to make yourself indispensable. If you're easily replaced by someone making minimum wage, you should expand your skill set. You should always be striving to be better. Or learn a useful trade or gain a marketable skill.

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 4:37:00 PM (view original):
That whizzing sound you hear is the point passing over your head.

If you're unskilled, you should learn a skill. If you're expendable, you should try to make yourself indispensable. If you're easily replaced by someone making minimum wage, you should expand your skill set. You should always be striving to be better. Or learn a useful trade or gain a marketable skill.

I agree.

Also, anyone who is 'performing well' at their job has leverage either with their existing employer or by applying elsewhere. I don't care if that person is a factory worker, a bank teller, or the CEO of a fortune 500 company. The only time there's no leverage is when a person is not performing well at their job or the Union has taken their leverage away from them.

Posted by bad_luck on 3/8/2017 4:54:00 PM (view original):

Posted by toddcommish on 3/8/2017 4:37:00 PM (view original):
That whizzing sound you hear is the point passing over your head.

If you're unskilled, you should learn a skill. If you're expendable, you should try to make yourself indispensable. If you're easily replaced by someone making minimum wage, you should expand your skill set. You should always be striving to be better. Or learn a useful trade or gain a marketable skill.

Sure. But there is a HUGE group of people in the country that are semi-skilled. It's in their best interest to unionize but large companies have been successful in their lobbying to weaken labor laws.

Unions have worked out well for auto workers, steel manufacturers, etc the last 50 years or so.