Quote: Originally Posted By Trentonjoe on 2/17/2010

Quote: Originally posted by nmchnv on 2/17/2010
Raines would be a lock if he had put up those stats as a Yankee.

Or if there wasn't a guy named Rickey Henderson who was essentially a better Raines who played at the exact same time.

If Raines were primarily a Cardinal, Cub, Dodger or Red Sox he'd still be a lock. Hell, I might give the guy a decent shot if he was a Pirate or even a Royal. unfortunately he played primarily for the Expos, which happens to be weakest MLB city in the past 100+ years when it comes to the politics of baseball.

Really? Is Raines better than Fred Lynn? Dale Murphy? Keith Hernandez?

Fred Lynn- 17 seasons (7900 PA), 283/360/484, 9 time All-Star, 4 time gold glove winner, won 1 mvp, finished in the top 5 one other time

Dale Murphy- 18 seasons (9040 PA)- 265/346/469, 7 time All-Star, 5 time gold glove winner, won 2 mvps,

Keith Hernandez- 17 seasons (8500 PA), 296/384/436, 5 time All-Star, 11 time gold glove winner, won 1 mvp, finished in the top 5 2 other times

Tim Raines- 24 Seasons (10,300 PA), 294/385/ 424, 8 time all star, 0 gold gloves, 0 mvps, 1 top 5 finish

And all those guys didn't have the benefits of playing in the steroid era. Raines was, obviously, a tremendous base stealer, and played longer but I don't see how he is significant better than any of these three guys.


(EDIT) There is probably a better contemporary comparison but I can't think of one off the top of my head. I originally thought of Daryl Strawberry but he really only played 7 FT seasons.

or

Will Clark- 15 seasons (8300 PA)- 303/384/497- 6 time all star, 1 gold gloves, 0 mvps, 4 top 5 mvp finishes

My point is that if you compare raines to a 2b from the 60's and 70's his #'s look really good. If you compare him to contemporary outfielders and firstbaseman he is merely good.

He was a great base stealer (maybe the best, I haven't really looked into it), he was good player, and he had a long career.

Does he compare well with the bottom rungs of the HOF latter, sure, but he is more like Fred Lynn than Joe Morgan in my opinion.

Quote: Originally Posted By Trentonjoe on 2/18/2010or

Will Clark- 15 seasons (8300 PA)- 303/384/497- 6 time all star, 0 gold gloves, 1 mvps, 4 top 5 mvp finishe

I don't recall Clark winning an MVP, and I'm a Giants fan.

sorry, fixed it, he won a GG not a MVP

"Steroid era" guys - Raines only had *one* season with more than 500 PA during the steroid era. He built his case in the 1980s. Just establishing that...

He had almost 2700 PA from 1993-2001 (2250 if you count the steroid era as 1994). He had very similar batting stats(AVG/OBP/ SLG) from ages 21-32 as he did from 33-41.

In fact at 41 his #'s were (303/413/449) which are better than his career #'s. In his defense it was in only 109 PA.

Yes, I'm counting 1994 as the start of the steroid era. It could be '93 or '95 or whatever, but he's still got 75% of his PA beforehand.

The SB is the most underrated stat in MLB. Rock was a basestealing fiend and hands down the most efficient at it. He was an extra base hit machine, switch hitter, drew his share of walks, and played a solid (not great) OF. Is he one of the top 50 players of all time? No. He is probably the best leadoff hitter ever not named Ricky Henderson. He suffers from playing at the exact same time as Ricky, being hidden in Montreal, and still being a productive player during the steroid era, even though 75% of his body of work was done outside of that.

The comparisons to Lynn/Clark/Murphy aren't good because those guys were power hitters. Rock is in the ballpark of those guys' slg%. Factor in the SB's and it really isn't close. Again, the SB is so underrated. The SB is probably more underrated than save is (so help me Mariano Rivera) overrated.

Hernandez was a non-power guy, and Rock compares well with him w/o the SB's. Again, factor in the SB's and it isn't close.

I think Hernandez will get into the hall...

SBs are still underrated in the pricing structure of this game also. Thats why most of you still have him on your Astro-teams. Duh.

Quote: Originally Posted By boogerlips on 2/19/2010SBs are still underrated in the pricing structure of this game also. Thats why most of you still have him on your Astro-teams. Duh.

I think SB's are priced OK in this game only because of the disproportionate drafting of A+++ catcher arms. The rate that Roseboro and Molina throw out runners, even Raines, the SB here is greatly dimished.

And, Sparky isn't too smart is his SB attempts.

SB's in sim vs arms under 40% are a bargain, but few owners draft arms that "weak."

Quote: Originally Posted By zubinsum on 2/19/2010I think Hernandez will get into the hall..

FWIW I think Hernandez and Murphy are worthy of consideration. Neither ahead of Raines, but both ahead of Rice. I had a real problem with Rice going in ahead of Dawson and Raines. I have a problem with Rice being in period. And I had a problem with Sutter going in ahead of Goose. Goose was THE man, until this Rivera guy showed up.

Quote: Originally posted by zubinsum on 2/19/2010I think Hernandez will get into the hall...

I don't think he is even on the ballot anymore. When he was he never got close (I just looked it up he never broke 11%).