Just make minimum wage $25 per hour and that $18 per paycheck won't seem like much. 

I can't believe people are still arguing that the ACA is "working."

Iraq you can entirely blame on Bush, and you're well within your rights.  If we'd never been there, Sadam Hussein would probably still be in power, and if nothing else it would be politically stable.

The economy you can blame on Bush.  It's not really his fault, any more than it's really Obama's fault, but everybody wants to blame it on some president or another, so whatever.  Clinton policies really started the runaway lending market, but for all we know things may have plateaued healthily and stabilized themselves without a recession if 9/11 hadn't prompted the "Great Recession," who knows.  If we blame it on the terrorists we can all agree, right?

But seriously, Obamacare works?  Utterly absurd.

Posted by dahsdebater on 10/7/2014 10:46:00 PM (view original):
I can't believe people are still arguing that the ACA is "working."

Iraq you can entirely blame on Bush, and you're well within your rights.  If we'd never been there, Sadam Hussein would probably still be in power, and if nothing else it would be politically stable.

The economy you can blame on Bush.  It's not really his fault, any more than it's really Obama's fault, but everybody wants to blame it on some president or another, so whatever.  Clinton policies really started the runaway lending market, but for all we know things may have plateaued healthily and stabilized themselves without a recession if 9/11 hadn't prompted the "Great Recession," who knows.  If we blame it on the terrorists we can all agree, right?

But seriously, Obamacare works?  Utterly absurd.

It's the definition of "working" that is in dispute.

More people have access to healthcare.   Many of those who previously had healthcare are paying more for the same or less.  I know people in all three groups:
Didn't have, now have
Did have, pay less
Did have, pay more

I fall into category #3 so, obviously, it's not "working" for me.

 There is no ACA.  There was a law called the ACA that passed about four years ago.  It doesn't exist anymore.  It's been changed….I dunno…how many times?  Without a vote or congressional input.  It's all executive fiat.  I don't know what we have right now.  Neither do you.  I do know one thing.

  Right after the election it's gonna change again.  BIG TIME.  Most of the temporary exemptions will disappear.  Unless Obama pushes it back again.  Nobody knows what he's gonna do because he doesn't know what he's gonna do.  Wait for it.  It's all about politics and his interest in it is over after November. This could get nasty.  And I'm not gonna argue if it has caused rates to go up or if access has been increased or if there was a much simpler answer to pre-existing or anything else. I'm not wasting my breath nor does it matter.  It never did.  None of this is real.  I'll tell you what I do know.

  In 2007 Obama gave a speech.  Closed.  Not to be recorded.  In San Francisco.  We have the audio.  It might be the same speech he promises to shut down the coal industry.  He talks about Obamacare.  He let's his "friends" know it is a temporary transition on the way to single payer European style healthcare.  In other words, the ACA was designed to fail.  He talked of a 10 to 15 year transition period until the private sector collapsed.  The government collapses the private sector and takes over one sixth of the economy.  The insurance industry is destroyed.  The doctor - patient family is dead.  Replaced by the Doctor answers to the government and the patient (read citizen) talks to a mindless bureaucracy of uninspired government employees around a table in some remote local so far removed from the actual situation as to be ineffective.  Destructive.  A killing machine.

  And what could be better?  Really.  The faster you can kill people the better it is for big government.  Get the social security money.  Get em early.  Put in then cut 'em off before the big payday.  And ya gotta do it.  You have to pay for big government and Unions and their vacations and retirement and healthcare because you are the worker ant.  And this is the new America.  Screw the middle class.  We're all the same and you are just as good as me.  There is never a difference.  And everybody gets a fair shake until nobody get ****.  Spread misery around.  Punish success and reward mediocracy. 

  So I'm looking at your big healthcare victory and comparing it with all the other big great things Obama has done and how great the economy is and how nice it is that 80% OF NEW JOBS are part time so you don't get healthcare anyways and how secure the world is and how wonderful things are in the new liberal world where Obama has fundamentally changed America.  And that's gonna allow me to go to bed tonight  feeling all warm and fuzzy because you're still stuck on Obama and how great his fake temporary healthcare is and how you think it cheaper now and didn't rates go up anyways.

  Idiocracy.


   

So the "European system," as you describe it, is "a killing machine?"

Why is it, exactly, that on average they live longer than we do?

Posted by moy23 on 10/8/2014 4:58:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 10/7/2014 6:56:00 PM (view original):
Just make minimum wage $25 per hour and that $18 per paycheck won't seem like much. 

Always find the minimum wage argument interesting. Are people that lazy they can't work a little more efficiently and get promoted? If after 1 year you are still stuck at a minimum wage job odds are it's you that's doing something wrong. Then again:

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that"
-George Carlin

That is clearly the opinion of someone far out of touch with the sector of society making minimum wage.  You don't give "promotions" to minimum wage employees.  Minimum wage jobs don't have a lot of upward mobility.  What do you promote a janitor to, exactly?  You need one guy to organize the custodial staff of a large building, typically, and you only replace that person once every few decades.  What do you promote a Wal-Mart greeter to?  Or a checker?  Or a McDonald's "chef?"

If people start begging for raises, you fire them and find one of the substantial number of unemployed people happy to work for minimum wage, until they get uppity and start asking for raises.  Then you move on to the next guy.

In the '70s, high school graduates could get good jobs in the manufacturing sector.  The unions secured regular pay raises and you could comfortably support a family on that income.  We don't manufacture much anymore.  Minimum wage jobs are largely ununionized (which is fine with me), but they also tend to be short-term, quickly-rotating positions with little to no opportunity for advancement.  I know a few people who have been working at minimum wage for years, and some of them are very hard workers, very good employees.  They still have to switch jobs every few years.  That's just the nature of the low-income job market.

Posted by dahsdebater on 10/9/2014 12:02:00 AM (view original):
So the "European system," as you describe it, is "a killing machine?"

Why is it, exactly, that on average they live longer than we do?

Europeans live a healthier lifestyle.  In particular, with the way they eat.

Posted by tecwrg on 10/9/2014 6:37:00 AM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 10/9/2014 12:02:00 AM (view original):
So the "European system," as you describe it, is "a killing machine?"

Why is it, exactly, that on average they live longer than we do?

Europeans live a healthier lifestyle.  In particular, with the way they eat.

You mean "in the way they don't eat", right?    We're fat.    Every person I've ever worked with from a foreign country has commented on portion size at restaurants.   And I'd wager we're all guilty of overeating occassionally.    6 oz steak dinner is $22.99.   12 oz is $29.99.   Almost everyone goes for the value.

Posted by dahsdebater on 10/9/2014 12:07:00 AM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 10/8/2014 4:58:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 10/7/2014 6:56:00 PM (view original):
Just make minimum wage $25 per hour and that $18 per paycheck won't seem like much. 

Always find the minimum wage argument interesting. Are people that lazy they can't work a little more efficiently and get promoted? If after 1 year you are still stuck at a minimum wage job odds are it's you that's doing something wrong. Then again:

"Think of how stupid the average person is, and realize half of them are stupider than that"
-George Carlin

That is clearly the opinion of someone far out of touch with the sector of society making minimum wage.  You don't give "promotions" to minimum wage employees.  Minimum wage jobs don't have a lot of upward mobility.  What do you promote a janitor to, exactly?  You need one guy to organize the custodial staff of a large building, typically, and you only replace that person once every few decades.  What do you promote a Wal-Mart greeter to?  Or a checker?  Or a McDonald's "chef?"

If people start begging for raises, you fire them and find one of the substantial number of unemployed people happy to work for minimum wage, until they get uppity and start asking for raises.  Then you move on to the next guy.

In the '70s, high school graduates could get good jobs in the manufacturing sector.  The unions secured regular pay raises and you could comfortably support a family on that income.  We don't manufacture much anymore.  Minimum wage jobs are largely ununionized (which is fine with me), but they also tend to be short-term, quickly-rotating positions with little to no opportunity for advancement.  I know a few people who have been working at minimum wage for years, and some of them are very hard workers, very good employees.  They still have to switch jobs every few years.  That's just the nature of the low-income job market.

Good workers with a skill set of some sort will get promoted.    Some jobs are dead end jobs.   But, if you're at one and feel like you could move up given the opportunity, you switch jobs.     Businesses are always looking for bright, hard workers.    You can't move from Wal-Mart greeter to VP of Operations overnight, or ever if you stay at Wal-Mart, but people do move up the "food chain".

One of the "problems" I've noticed is that college graduates these days feel entitled to a certain level of employment.  They aren't.   If I need a file clerk, I need a file clerk.   I don't need a district manager and your degree doesn't mean you could do the job anyway.

Posted by bad_luck on 10/8/2014 2:50:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 10/8/2014 2:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 10/7/2014 10:46:00 PM (view original):
I can't believe people are still arguing that the ACA is "working."

Iraq you can entirely blame on Bush, and you're well within your rights.  If we'd never been there, Sadam Hussein would probably still be in power, and if nothing else it would be politically stable.

The economy you can blame on Bush.  It's not really his fault, any more than it's really Obama's fault, but everybody wants to blame it on some president or another, so whatever.  Clinton policies really started the runaway lending market, but for all we know things may have plateaued healthily and stabilized themselves without a recession if 9/11 hadn't prompted the "Great Recession," who knows.  If we blame it on the terrorists we can all agree, right?

But seriously, Obamacare works?  Utterly absurd.

It's the definition of "working" that is in dispute.

More people have access to healthcare.   Many of those who previously had healthcare are paying more for the same or less.  I know people in all three groups:
Didn't have, now have
Did have, pay less
Did have, pay more

I fall into category #3 so, obviously, it's not "working" for me.

How do you know the ACA caused you to pay more? Rates have been going up for years.

I suppose we can all just be Obamacare apologists and ignore the fact that it has indeed increased healthcare costs for a number of people.