Posted by zubinsum on 5/26/2011 9:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by jfranco77 on 5/26/2011 3:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by crazystengel on 5/26/2011 3:43:00 PM (view original):
Assuming plus/minus plays are influenced by league average ranges, does it help us to know this?  Let's say I have three OF's with A+, D and D range.  Should I play the A+ guy where his range is likely to be way above average relative to the rest of the league (LF or RF)?  Okay, so he winds up with more plus plays -- but what about the D ranger guy I'm now playing in CF?  He's going to rack up a lot of minus plays, more than he would have in the corners, right?

Right. I don't really know how strong the impact is. If you got everyone to agree to play D range guys in CF, would they all play it capably? Or is there a limit? I have to think it's a mix between pure range and relative range. Mike Cameron would still have to get 20+ plays even surrounded by other A+ guys (I would think)

Plus/ minus plays are not influenced by league average ranges.  What I was trying to communicate is that in the sim, neutral range (the point where plus and minus plays balance on average) is higher in CF (~B+) than it is in RF or LF (~C-).  This is about the same as in real-life where a league average CF (say Colby Rasmus) would easily play the best COF in the majors.  While a very good LF (say Matt Holliday) would play one of the worst CFs in the majors.

While I generally agree with this premise, I slightly disagree with the extent of your analysis.  Not that it's entirely germaine to the conversation.  But Chris Coghlan has been an adequate if unspectacular CF for Florida this year, while he was previously regarded as an unoutstanding COF/1B.  And as an Orioles fan, I'd like to say that I've really enjoyed watching Pie, Jones, and Markakis in the outfield and I think any of them could play center.  Markakis has never done it and would need to adjust, but he has the range and a solid glove to go with a great arm.  You also have a bunch of former centerfielders who are now playing at the corners who could certainly move back to center if asked (Carl Crawford, anyone?).  In fact, I'd take Crawford over many, many centerfielders.  Brett Gardner could probably be a better CF than many of the CF in the bigs as well.  Ichiro, too.  You think the average CF could move into right and be head and shoulders above Ichiro, Gardner, Crawford, and Markakis?  I'd take any of those guys defensively over Rasmus.

Posted by schwarze on 5/26/2011 2:08:00 PM (view original):
Results from a recent league...

Player	SN	Pos	G	GS	Inn	PO	A	E	DP	+	-	Fld%	RF
McPhee, Bid	1887	2B	162	162	1,447.3	357	597	23	87	41	1	.976	5.93
Anson, Cap	1885	1B	162	162	1,392.3	1698	120	10	109	40	0	.995	11.75
Glasscock, Jack	1887	SS	162	162	1,447.3	354	542	34	99	34	0	.963	5.57
Stovey, Harry	1886	CF	162	162	1,392.3	385	3	9	0	28	0	.977	2.51
Lyons, Denny	1889	3B	162	162	1,396.3	130	290	33	15	26	0	.927	2.71
Carroll, Fred	1886	RF	162	162	1,447.3	324	8	6	1	26	0	.982	2.06
Hanlon, Ned	1890	LF	162	162	1,447.3	278	7	8	0	16	0	.973	1.77

Including pitchers and other players, the team had 235 "+" plays and 2 "-" plays.  Sadly, they finished win only 83 wins.

Which, precisely supports my theory that defense is overrated in this game. If defense was as important as some may think, with 235 "+" plays and only 2 "-" plays, this team should have won the WS hands down. 

But no matter the arguments in regard to defense, 20 plus plays from a guy with a 2.28 RRF is unquestionably extroardinary.

Actually Donlin finished with 22 "+" plays (my original post was made with 5 games left in the season).  In the entire league, including all positions, only 6 players had more "+ plays.  First overall was my CF 1954 Ashburn with 53 -- so you can't even say that Donlin took some plays away from a weak CF.

What did you have Crazy, an all-hands/range team? lol

We did.  They said they didn't want  to comment.