Call Bullpen setting of 0 Topic

contrarian23
Posts: 20416 (4)
Hall of Famer
1802 1
Hall of Famer
I might be in favor of this, but I would prefer that the TPC and MPC for a call bullpen setting of "0" be capped at a much lower number than 255....maybe 150, maybe even less.  As it is, one of the least realistic aspects of WIS is that a pitcher can be left in to throw 255 pitches and give up an ungodly number of runs.  In my opinion, the game needs less of that, not more.

I'm in favor of "0" to the extent it means "don't pull my guy before he reaches his pitch limit."  I'm not in favor of "0" to the extent it means "leave my guy in there to take a completely unrealistic beating because I drafted poorly and don't have enough innings to keep my guys from getting fatigued."

7/9/2010 9:42 PM
crazystengel
Posts: 12095 (0)
Hall of Famer
693
Hall of Famer
255 pitches is in fact "realistic" in the sense that it's happened in reality:

www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi

"...on May 1, 1920, Brooklyn and Boston played a 1-1 tie that lasted 26 innings. Incredibly, pitchers Leon Cadore and Joe Oeschger each went the distance. Historians estimate that Cadore threw 345 pitches, Oeschger 319."

"In 1974, according to beat writers in attendance, [Nolan] Ryan threw 259 pitches in a 12-inning win over Kansas City."

Now, those pitchers weren't getting shelled for their 255+ pitches, but the fact remains, they threw a huge number of pitches.

With respect to taking advantage of this in the sim, I think in an injuries on league owners are limited in tanking games in this manner.  If your 200K scrub throws 255 pitches in a game, he's going to be at 0% for a long, long time, so it's not as if you got the 9 innings for "free" -- you're paying for it with a black hole on your roster.  What this means is that for the foreseeable future your pitcher won't last more than a batter or two in subsequent appearances (and chances are very good that he's not going to be getting that batter or two out, either). 

How many games a season can you throw out a scrub for a 255 pitch beating?  Probably not more than a handful, unless you want to go the WW route and devalue your team by incurring transaction fees.  To my way of thinking, this is a small price to pay for giving owners the ability to decide exactly how long they want their pitchers to stay in a game.
7/10/2010 1:26 AM (edited)
contrarian23
Posts: 20416 (4)
Hall of Famer
1802 1
Hall of Famer

Good stuff crazy.  I'm familiar with both games - and they more or less prove my point.  The pitchers in those games weren't getting shelled.

I'm ok with the 255 pitch cap - for nonzero call bullpen settings.

It's the combination of absurdly high pitch caps AND a nonzero pitch setting that bothers me - not either one of them on its own.

I disagree with the premise that an owner is limited in how much he can take advantage of this loophole.  In an OL for example, with AAA, it's very easy for me to draft 4-5 200K scrubs (with a total of >100 IP).  That gives me something like 10-12 games I can tank.  Further, if I have a poor AAA pitcher, chances are he's good for quite a few innings himself.  That gets me up to 15-20 games; and I pay no roster penalty because I can hide those guys in AAA while they're fatigued.

In higher cap themes with no AAA, you can accomplish the same thing with someone like 1888 Gilmore.

So again, I am in favor of a call bullpen rating of zero; I just want it combined with a tighter restriction on the TPC/MPC than for other call bullpen settings.

7/10/2010 7:55 AM (edited)
crazystengel
Posts: 12095 (0)
Hall of Famer
693
Hall of Famer
I don't see it as a negative that owners can send out rested scrubs and leave them in for 255 pitches for 5, 10 or even 20 games a season.  No, it doesn't happen in real life, but a lot of players in the sim are never used by us the way they were in real life (e.g., no one uses 88 Bob Milacki for 3 starts a season and nothing else; a lot of deadball speedsters never attempt a SB for us because of their horrible success rate; most of us don't bat our worst hitters 2nd in the order, as a lot of managers from history did; etc.). 

Remember, the name of the site is What If, not What Was.  Let's give ourselves a little leeway to be creative and have fun.
7/10/2010 5:48 PM
skunk206
Posts: 11218 (0)
Hall of Famer
1319
Hall of Famer
I fully support lowering the pitch maximum of 255 for anyone set to a Call Bullpen rating of 0.
7/12/2010 3:35 PM
thunder1008
Posts: 1772 (0)
Hall of Famer
1782
Hall of Famer
I love crazystengel's comment that the site is called "What If," not "What Was."  Good point.

I am in favor of anything that gives owners more control over their teams, so I'm in favor of a "Call Bullpen" setting of zero.  If owners want to ensure that a starting pitcher stays in no matter what, that's their prerogative.  Nobody should have an SP who is pitching well yanked ahead of his TPC if he is at the lowest pull setting available simply because Sparky perceives the game situation differently.  It's an easy game decision to control, and the owner should be allowed to control it.

I appreciate SIM's concern about abuse of a "0" setting, but I think it's misplaced.  Let's start from the premise that owners will always think of more creative abuse strategies than SIM can anticipate, so SIM can never build a foolproof system.  Nor should they try.  In this area, I think SIM should take a reactive rather than a proactive or pre-emptive role.  Rather than trying to outsmart owners' potential abuse strategies in advance, SIM should do what it does best -- implement policies to curb abuses on an as needed basis.  SIM has done this well with IP/PA miminums (even if they're unpopular), limiting PA's that "count" toward fatigue to 6 in a blowout game, fixing the glitch that allows pitchers to pitch indefinitely at 0% fatigue if everybody else is unavailable, etc.

SIM should allow a pull setting of "0," and they should keep the pitch cap at 255 for now.  If owners begin to abuse the system in OL's not controlled by league policies,then SIM can lower the PC cap.  SIM will outsmart itself it it tries too hard to save us from ourselves.

Just my two cents' worth...
7/13/2010 1:45 AM
zubinsum
Posts: 1731 (0)
Hall of Famer
72
Hall of Famer
Posted by tzentmeyer on 7/8/2010 5:10:00 PM (view original):
It's a balance between user settings and realism. If we only went with user settings, there'd be far too much abuse and problems caused. Enforcing some semblance of forced realism keeps things flowing.

We can always improve this logic, so if you see situations where you're not getting what you want, click the Review Box link on the box score.
This was my thought exactly.  The problem with such a setting is that it would be incredibly unrealistic...  Don't get me wrong, I have throw more than my fair share of games, but such a setting would make even easier to abuse or game the sim.

I'm okay with the idea in a theme league, but it OLs it is just too unrealistic.
7/16/2010 9:47 PM
This post has a rating of , which is below the default threshold.
Show
Trentonjoe
Posts: 11088 (0)
Hall of Famer
395 612 54 1
Hall of Famer
Posted by crazystengel on 7/10/2010 5:49:00 PM (view original):
I don't see it as a negative that owners can send out rested scrubs and leave them in for 255 pitches for 5, 10 or even 20 games a season.  No, it doesn't happen in real life, but a lot of players in the sim are never used by us the way they were in real life (e.g., no one uses 88 Bob Milacki for 3 starts a season and nothing else; a lot of deadball speedsters never attempt a SB for us because of their horrible success rate; most of us don't bat our worst hitters 2nd in the order, as a lot of managers from history did; etc.). 

Remember, the name of the site is What If, not What Was.  Let's give ourselves a little leeway to be creative and have fun.
I think that is a negative.   I would even propose that ANY pitcher should be yanked after 10 or 12 runs.

A basic premise should be that the SIM manager is trying to win the game even if the human owner doesn't care.
7/19/2010 11:10 AM
crazystengel
Posts: 12095 (0)
Hall of Famer
693
Hall of Famer
The human owner can look at the big picture, and see that leaving a scrub in for a 9-inning beating can give the rest of his staff a rest, and thus improve his team's chances of making the playoffs. 

Call it "accounting" if you want, but this isn't real baseball, and it'll never be.  It's a math game more than it is real baseball. 

Plus, I'm paying for the privilege of being the human owner.  I'd like as much say as possible in managing my team.

With that being said, I don't think it is a bad option for theme leagues to be able to forbid the 0 setting.  I just wouldn't play in them.

7/19/2010 4:54 PM (edited)
Trentonjoe
Posts: 11088 (0)
Hall of Famer
395 612 54 1
Hall of Famer
I see your point but I disagree with you.   I would prefer this game be more like baseball and less like math.

I actually think the way it is set up is kinda a compromise.
7/20/2010 10:40 AM
skunk206
Posts: 11218 (0)
Hall of Famer
1319
Hall of Famer
http://www.whatifsports.com/slb/Boxscore.aspx?gid=12147278&pid=1&pbp=0&tf=10

Hoyt Wilhelm throws 112 pitches over 3 innings, giving up 13 hits, 6 walks, and 17 runs. Two 100% relievers appear after him.
7/20/2010 12:40 PM
skunk206
Posts: 11218 (0)
Hall of Famer
1319
Hall of Famer
http://www.whatifsports.com/slb/Boxscore.aspx?gid=11857229&pid=1&pbp=0&tf=10

http://www.whatifsports.com/slb/Boxscore.aspx?gid=12177156&pid=1&pbp=0&tf=10

In the first boxscore, Clark Griffith enters the game at 64% and throws 140 pitches to finish the game.  He gives up 20 hits, 5 walks, and 21 runs.

In the second boxscore, the same Clark Griffith finishes the game by throwing 155 pitches, giving up 15 hits, 9 walks, and 22 runs.

The owner of Griffith had over 2200 IP on his roster ($160M league).  It's safe to assume that there were pitchers available to replace Griffith who were at 100%.
7/20/2010 12:47 PM
skunk206
Posts: 11218 (0)
Hall of Famer
1319
Hall of Famer
http://www.whatifsports.com/slb/Boxscore.aspx?gid=11902287&pid=1&pbp=0&tf=10

Bob Reynolds enters the game at 39%. He throws 113 pitches, giving up 12 hits, 9 walks, and 15 runs.
7/20/2010 12:48 PM
skunk206
Posts: 11218 (0)
Hall of Famer
1319
Hall of Famer
http://www.whatifsports.com/slb/Boxscore.aspx?gid=12172456&pid=1&pbp=0&tf=10

Mike Adams throws 123 pitches, giving up 6 hits, 12 walks, and 15 runs.
7/20/2010 12:49 PM
◂ Prev 123 Next ▸
Call Bullpen setting of 0 Topic
△Top△Bottom

Search Criteria

Terms of Use Customer Support Privacy Statement

© 1999-2024 WhatIfSports.com, Inc. All rights reserved. WhatIfSports is a trademark of WhatIfSports.com, Inc. SimLeague, SimMatchup and iSimNow are trademarks or registered trademarks of Electronic Arts, Inc. Used under license. The names of actual companies and products mentioned herein may be the trademarks of their respective owners.