Quote: Originally posted by tianyi7886 on 2/14/2010

Quote: Originally posted by redsox1966 on 2/14/2010It's still difficult for me to understand why Raines isn't in the Hall of Fame and a player like Andre Dawson is.....

Had a long career with good numbers, but just not enough awards. Never won MVP and only had 1 batting title. 20+ seasons but not in the 3000 hit club. He also didn't get the gold gloves or silver slugger awards that players like Tony Gwynn got. On top of that, he didn't have the outstanding power numbers that alot of the hofers have. I like raines but I think his chances into the Hof is not good.

He was a 7 time all-star with 3 top ten MVP seasons. He also had another 3 top 20 MVP.

Dawson was an 8 time all-star with 4 top ten MVP seasons (with 1 win and two 2nd's). He also had 3 more top 20 seasons, 2 more in the top 25 and a ROY (but I think ROY is reasonably meaningless).

I think awards are quite meaningful, based on this alone, Dawson was the better candidate.

True, if you set up Dawson vs. Raines. But it's not like that was the choice before the Hall voters. Any Hall voter could have placed Dawson and Raines both on his ballot. But most of them don't vote for Raines, so the perceptual gap among Hall of Fame voters is much larger than the gap represented by TJ's comparison above.

The greater question, in my mind, when it comes to the Hall is why the voters and then the Veterans Committee have been so unkind to Ron Santo and Ken Boyer. Third base is the most poorly represented position of all in the Hall of Fame.

Santo's awards are as good (or close to) Dawson's (9 AS, 4 top 10 MVP, 2 more top 20)

Santo is 7-4-3

Honestly, I think all 4 guys are borderline at best Hall of Famers.

How come Al Oliver gets no love? His stats are as good as Raines and Dawson.

or Dale Murphy?

I think coming in at top 10 MVP is much different than winning an MVP, which weighs (and justifiably so) alot more.

All we learned from that thread is that MikeT23 is an arrogant douchebag who is perfectly capable of disregarding logic and evidence when it disagrees with his deepseated convictions; this of course is entirely logical, since it is clear that he is the greatest baseball mind in history.

Raines is not a hall of fame player. Sadly, he will be compared somehow to some of the other guys who SHOULD NOT be in there. (Tony Perez, Richie Ashburn, Andre Dawson....) That will help make his case. On a scale of 1-10, Raines is a 7 or 8 in my opinion. VERY GOOD, but a HOF should be a 9 or 10.

I dunno, just seems like to many of these guys DO get in when it should be reserved for the absolute best players.

Seems to me that the only way Raines can be viewed as anything BUT a Hall of Famer is by completely ignoring the fact that his prime occurred during a pitching-dominated era. I agree that we have watered down the HoF a great deal recently. A number of players who don't deserve it are certainly in. That being said, Raines is in my mind "one of the absolute best players" in a number of ways. His OBP# is well into the top 100 of all time. He is the best base thief in history. That alone should get him in - anyone who is the best in the 130+ year history of the game at anything positive deserves to be in the Hall.

Actually, dahsdebater, it was cougarslayer that was the arrogant douchebag. MikeT23 played the 'ignorant dumbass' in that thread.

Quote: Originally Posted By dahsdebater on 2/15/2010Seems to me that the only way Raines can be viewed as anything BUT a Hall of Famer is by completely ignoring the fact that his prime occurred during a pitching-dominated era. I agree that we have watered down the HoF a great deal recently. A number of players who don't deserve it are certainly in. That being said, Raines is in my mind "one of the absolute best players" in a number of ways. His OBP# is well into the top 100 of all time. He is the best base thief in history. That alone should get him in - anyone who is the best in the 130+ year history of the game at anything positive deserves to be in the Hall

The door is already open for lesser players to get in. Andre Dawson...I mean, seriously? People think this guy should be in with Ruth, Ted Williams, Willie Mays!?!?! No way, and I feel the same about Tim Raines. Great player, just not a HOF player in my humble opinion. I would say he is on the fringe of being good enough to get in, but not quite there. I also say this being the biggest Don Mattingly fan of all time. It makes me sad to say, but he ALSO did not have a good enough career to get in in my opinion.


It would be silly for me to sit here and trash Tim Raines, I just don't think HOF when I think of him. But, I could list a ton of guys who are already in that should not be, so I think Raines will make it because of that.

Joe Morgan: .271.392.427 689/162 SBs
Tim Raines: .294.385.425 808/146 SBs

Quote: Originally Posted By boogerlips on 2/15/2010Actually, dahsdebater, it was cougarslayer that was the arrogant douchebag. MikeT23 played the 'ignorant dumbass' in that thread

You're right, I misremembered. Looking at it that is a much more accurate assignment of roles...

Quote: Originally posted by boogerlips on 2/15/2010Joe Morgan: .271.392.427 689/162 SBs
Tim Raines:  .294.385.425 808/146 SBs 

Whoa, maybe Joe Morgan is NOT a hall of famer? Oh wait, he played 2b with those stats. Nevermind.

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