It was only a matter of time... Topic

I've never wanted a complete un-random system, but I would like to see previous results have more of an impact on current behavior (I like how you put that, very clear and easy to understand) - but not a a complete impact. I don't want to see the Jordan in this scenario hit his next 8 shots to "catch-up". But I'd maybe like to see a better chance as he gets more misses. Maybe a slight modified fg% as it deviates from his real percentage. And by slight, I mean by less than one percent per maybe five percent off.

We'll try with half a percent.

So if Jordan is shooting 16.6% so far, then under the current system, number 13 has a 50% chance of making it. Under what I say, fga 13 has a 53-point-something% chance of making it.

It goes in and now he'll have less of a chance of making fga 14 than he did 13, but more of a chance than if he was already on a hot streak.



Even while typing this, though, I shake my head. This isn't my problem with the sim - guys shooting below their rl average. My problem with fg% is that it is so drastically higher than RL... which comes back to defense and the lack of impact it has on the sim.

And you're dead on when it comes to older players being severely overpriced. This version of the sim was supposed to normalize fg% (fg%+ stats), but it did a really poor job of implementing it.

For example, 1960-1961 Elgin Baylor shot 43%. I don't want that high of usage with that low of fg% on my team. But, his 43% was above the league average at the time. It was 104% of the league average in fact.

But we don't see that reflected in the sim. But we sure as hell see his rebounding take a huge hit. We see Wilt and Russell and everyone else from the 60s lose their rebounds and ftas because the game was at a different "pace".

So these important stats are "normalized", while fg% is not. That same 43% elgin shot then would likely be much higher.

In 08-09, the league average was .459. So if we're calling that year the normalization point, he's shooting on the good side of 46%. I can dig that. He might be worth his salary then.

But they didn't implement that, even though they said they would.


for reference, the league average over the last five years:

08-09 .459
07-08 .457
06-07 .458
05-06 .454
04-05 .447


I'll take elgin's 104% of any of those. I don't want his 43% fg% un-normalized.

Not when they fabricated numbers for offensive boards and turnovers, then made the salaries not add up.

(they also don't normalize personal fouls, or at least there is nothing shown to indicate they do. I have a big issue with this, too... If players got all those rebounds and assists because of pace, then they got extra fouls because of pace, too).
11/28/2009 6:28 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By tnbishop on 11/28/2009




I enjoy the randomness of seeing player X having an outlier game, series, and even season.


I dont want to pay for an outlier game, series or season because Im actually trying to compete with other owners and I'd like the even playing field of having statistical expectations met so that I can see which of us is the best drafter and coach

outliers completely undermine all the competitive aspects of this game


11/28/2009 7:26 PM
I want to add something else... with the current state of the sim engine, using that particular elgin, up-tempo with 65%-75% ast% on the floor, he should be shooting between 49% and 51%. If, that is, they implemented fg%# correctly.
11/28/2009 8:24 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By tnbishop on 11/28/2009One problem is certain players offer way too much benefit for their price. For instance, Ed Pickney and Jeff Foster offer some great seasons. However, they bring similar things to the table that Dennis Rodman, well, owns. Rodman offers much more value per $.

So yeah, I could go unique and select Pickney or Foster, but I'd be handicapping myself.
How do you figure that Rodman offers much more value per $ than a good Jeff Foster season?
11/29/2009 1:00 PM
I created a custom formula to rate each player. It's mostly dependent on possessions gained and 'shooting efficiency compared to norm * usage'. There's a lot of subjective modifiers I use, so it's not perfect. Like how much is a block worth compared to a steal? Blocks don't always create a possession like a steal. Another example is the benefit of defensive rebounding. An offensive rebound is easily quantified as a positive possession. A skilled defensive rebounder saves lost possessions, which is harder to calculate the exact value. Statistical entry and calculations extends 38 columns per player in excel.

Anyway, three results picked from the forwards spot

91-92 Rodman scores 6.5
86-87 Barkley scores 6.3
07-08 Foster scores 4.9

Obviously you can't have all Rodman-type players, as you'll suffer huge usage penalties. Barkley offers things Rodman doesn't. Much of Barkley's value comes from his absurdly high shooting efficiency at his usage, whereas Rodman is a possession monster. Foster is also a possession champ. He's a great rebounder (not as spectacular as Rodman, especially defensively), with the added strength of not turning the ball over.

Foster's cost: 4.6 million for 1886 minutes
Rodman's cost: 8.8 million for 3300 minutes

Rodman's per minute cost is around 2660, whereas Fosters is 2450. The 1.6 differential in my system is quite huge. It projects to almost +2 points per game per 48 minutes. This is more than worth the 9% boost in cost. (getting +2 points at a single position is huge)

I estimate that season's Rodman value around 9.6-9.9 million. Though again, there are a lot of subjective modifiers in my calculations.


11/29/2009 5:33 PM
38 columns? Thats it?
11/30/2009 8:23 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By tnbishop on 11/29/2009(1) Like how much is a block worth compared to a steal?


(2) Foster's cost: 4.6 million for 1886 minutes
Rodman's cost: 8.8 million for 3300 minutes

Rodman's per minute cost is around 2660, whereas Fosters is 2450. The 1.6 differential in my system is quite huge. It projects to almost +2 points per game per 48 minutes. This is more than worth the 9% boost in cost. (getting +2 points at a single position is huge)

I estimate that season's Rodman value around 9.6-9.9 million. Though again, there are a lot of subjective modifiers in my calculations.
(1) A block plus a defensive rebound equals a steal.

(2) I would compare the 07-08 Foster with the 91-92 Rodman like this: If Foster played 3301 minutes, he would cost about 8.11M (about .715M less than Rodman). They are basically a push with regards to offense and defense, with Rodman having a 17.1% to 14.4% advantage in OReb% and a 31.6% to 23.1% advantage in DReb%. The pricing is ok imo.
11/30/2009 8:42 PM
Most their difference is in the DREB%, which i estimate causing 1.5 extra possessions for Rodman's team per game. The other variables average out to a small boost for Rodman.

I wouldn't define that as a push. My formula does rate that Foster above any Bulls Rodman. There are tweaks I know have to be made, I basically have to start from scratch importing data from bref though. I have a much better approach to statistically modeling players now. I'll wait until the NBA sim is updated though.

I'm not sure if it's included in the sim (so I this modifier 1.0), but there's a metric on one of the advanced basketball sites that shows TS% from offensive rebounds is significantly higher than normal. It makes sense when you think about it narratively, as the offense generally has the ball close to the basket with the defense in chaos. This means rebounding is even more vital.

Another interesting tidbit (which I doubt is included in the Whatif simulation).. Overall team TS% (shooting efficiency) is higher per possession when the point guard gets the defensive rebound. The narrative explanation is that getting the ball into your point guard's hands faster turns into a higher percentage of good fast breaks. This is the currently accepted reasoning, though the cause of the increase may be something else. This would boost the stock of players like Jason Kidd, Magic, etc
12/1/2009 2:08 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By tnbishop on 12/01/2009(1) Most their difference is in the DREB%, which i estimate causing 1.5 extra possessions for Rodman's team per game. The other variables average out to a small boost for Rodman.

(2) I wouldn't define that as a push. My formula does rate that Foster above any Bulls Rodman. There are tweaks I know have to be made, I basically have to start from scratch importing data from bref though. I have a much better approach to statistically modeling players now. I'll wait until the NBA sim is updated though.

(3) I'm not sure if it's included in the sim (so I this modifier 1.0), but there's a metric on one of the advanced basketball sites that shows TS% from offensive rebounds is significantly higher than normal. It makes sense when you think about it narratively, as the offense generally has the ball close to the basket with the defense in chaos. This means rebounding is even more vital.

(4) Another interesting tidbit (which I doubt is included in the Whatif simulation).. Overall team TS% (shooting efficiency) is higher per possession when the point guard gets the defensive rebound. The narrative explanation is that getting the ball into your point guard's hands faster turns into a higher percentage of good fast breaks. This is the currently accepted reasoning, though the cause of the increase may be something else. This would boost the stock of players like Jason Kidd, Magic, etc
(1) I think you are significantly overestimating the extra possessions based on DReb% for Rodman in this example (I will expand on that in another post at another time).

(2) I said the offense and defense for those specific 2 player-seasons was basically a push (not looking at the Rodman seasons with the Bulls).

(3) I believe there is a boost to FG% for a player for a putback shot resulting from an offensive rebound.

(4) That isn't currently in the sim. Are there any actual stats on this theory?
12/1/2009 4:57 PM
Back on topic, I see that Wilt is still averaging over 66ppg. The lack of assists don't seem to be affecting Wilt's FG% much.
12/1/2009 5:01 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By ncmusician_7 on 12/01/2009
(3) I believe there is a boost to FG% for a player for a putback shot resulting from an offensive rebound.

I dont believe so - I think the way it works an offensive simply resets the possession
12/1/2009 5:54 PM
Quote: Originally Posted By chester_o on 12/01/2009
Quote: Originally Posted By ncmusician_7 on 12/01/2009
(3) I believe there is a boost to FG% for a player for a putback shot resulting from an offensive rebound
I dont believe so - I think the way it works an offensive simply resets the possessio
per the FAQ: "If the ball is rebounded by an offensive player, there is a chance for a put-back. Assuming no put-back, the possession restarts." I believe seble said at one time that a put-back had a greater chance of being made than a regular shot.
12/1/2009 6:17 PM
So Bish.... with all that research trying to make sure you can figure EVERY statistical nuance in the game, and with all this data that you present here in the forum.... you still find it necessary to play an OL with the primo-cookie ? what, were you doing an experiment to find out if someone ELSE could figure out how to beat it ? Just looking for free sim points ? I don't get it....

If you know there's a flaw, try to be better, not a copycat.....
12/1/2009 8:46 PM
What's worse is the fact that the team can lead the league in turnovers (21.4 pg) and wins (65).
12/1/2009 9:18 PM
Some answers..

There's an online database that tracked the last 5 years of every NBA play. Rebounds by point guards lead to a statistically significant higher point per possession than any other position every single year. They didn't have the data from before that. SG was #2 each year. I'm having trouble finding this database now, I found it through a forum link and didn't save it.

TS% goes up for players on a team, even if they don't get the offensive rebound. For instance, Rodman grabs the board. He throws it to Jordan, who spots a wide open Steve Kerr for 3 or Pippen for 2. They get a better look than usual because the entire defense is out of position. This factor isn't modeled in the sim, nor does Rodman get anything in the box score outside the offensive rebound. Conversely, Rodman grabbing 10% more defensive rebounds (and thus stopping 10% of these situations) is worth more in real life than in the box score or sim.

As for cookie cutter, my problem is I found a lot of the under-priced players the first team I picked. Others have found them too, hence 'cookie-cutter. I'm unable to import whatif salaries into my spreadsheet and I'm not gonna hand type them. So I'm basically taking the top players from my rating and comparing them their price. Nash, Stockton, Jordan, Barkley, Rodman, Moses, etc all give huge bang for the buck. It's hard to compete without going after them. Once you include the 3P% bias, Peja and Allen rise to the top too.

My formula says Rodman has the two the most dominant forward seasons for a low usage guy in NBA history. It also thinks he's underpriced.

Btw, I think if the 3P% bias is removed, Stockton will become the cookie cutter point guard at his current price.

12/1/2009 11:15 PM
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