...plus beers hoisted, children spanked, chicks groped and cranks yanked.

Well said birdo....and I was wrong on my original comment. Forget SP as relievers for a second. If they only pitched 30 times all year, why would they be allowed to pitch 90+ in SIM?

League Update

He Won 116 games, not 110. He got smoked by a .500 team in the first round so I didnt have to beat him in playoffs...im now headed to the World Series after smoking the .500 team in the LCS.

This game would be extremely gay if they made you set up your pitching staff just exactly like an mlb team does. I could personally care less if its realistic for a player to pitch in a certain amount of appearances. I want to be able to use the innings I bought when I want to use them. I'm better at managing a pitching staff than the average John, and forcing me to use a 5man rotation, and starters must be starters, and blah blah blah, because thats the way the real life bastards do it, causes my chess pieces to be turned into checker pieces, and thus more parity insues.

Some of the 'making things realistic' ideas are okay as long as they don't take away from the quality of the game. Chess is a better game than checkers. Bridge is a better game than hearts. Some of you may enjoy checkers/hearts better, but they are inferior games. I don't think thats arguable.
Not all rules that make a game more complex are good ones, but allowing an owner to use his IPs whenever he wants is a good example of a rule that makes the game both more strategic and more fun.

Quote: Originally Posted By boogerlips on 10/25/2009
This game would be extremely gay if they made you set up your pitching staff just exactly like an mlb team does. I could personally care less if its realistic for a player to pitch in a certain amount of appearances. I want to be able to use the innings I bought when I want to use them. I'm better at managing a pitching staff than the average John, and forcing me to use a 5man rotation, and starters must be starters, and blah blah blah, because thats the way the real life bastards do it, causes my chess pieces to be turned into checker pieces, and thus more parity insues.

Some of the 'making things realistic' ideas are okay as long as they don't take away from the quality of the game. Chess is a better game than checkers. Bridge is a better game than hearts. Some of you may enjoy checkers/hearts better, but they are inferior games. I don't think thats arguable.
Not all rules that make a game more complex are good ones, but allowing an owner to use his IPs whenever he wants is a good example of a rule that makes the game both more strategic and more fun.

"Just because you're paranoid, it doesn't mean they're not out to get you. Scully." - Fox Mulder

I didn't say anything about preventing anyone from doing anything.

Eric Gagne pitched 83 innings in his best season. The sim doesn't let him start and pitch 9 complete games at the level he pitched those 83 innings because it factors in his IP per game. (But you are free to try.)

So being intellectually honest, you would also have to be in favor of Gagne becoming "super-starter".

"but allowing an owner to use his IPs whenever he wants is a good example of a rule that makes the game both more strategic and more fun"

...Or is "innings pitched per game" a legit stat while "games pitched per season is not"?

Stay tuned - next time we take on the "I'm better at managing a pitching staff than the average John" comment.

Quote: Originally Posted By elbirdo on 10/26/2009
Eric Gagne pitched 83 innings in his best season. The sim doesn't let him start and pitch 9 complete games at the level he pitched those 83 innings because it factors in his IP per game. (But you are free to try.)

So being intellectually honest, you would also have to be in favor of Gagne becoming "super-starter".

Those of us who play in leagues other than 255mil (which I'll be happy to school you in again sometime) are familiar with many "super- starters" who don't cost a dime per IP more than the blokes with 1 IP/G.

Quote: Originally Posted By boogerlips on 10/26/2009

Quote: Originally Posted By elbirdo on 10/26/2009

Eric Gagne pitched 83 innings in his best season. The sim doesn't let him start and pitch 9 complete games at the level he pitched those 83 innings because it factors in his IP per game. (But you are free to try.)

So being intellectually honest, you would also have to be in favor of Gagne becoming "super-starter".

Those of us who play in leagues other than 255mil (which I'll be happy to school you in again sometime) are familiar with many "super- starters" who don't cost a dime per IP more than the blokes with 1 IP/G

Cute - But that doesn't really address my point now, does it?

What? Eck and Gagne average a .3ERA better than Jack Quinn? Big deal. If you want to believe that the only reason those guys achieve great ERAs is because they only pitch one inning at a time, then thats an opinionated statment. When great pitchers only pitch 60-70 innings a year, every once in a while you'll end up with a freak season because of the small sample size. I can't help it that they pitch one inning at a time, and I don't see anything magical about it. Like I said, guys in the sim with 8IP/G cost the same as guys with 1IP/G, so the site architects agree with me that "super-starters" shouldn't cost more.

FWIW, I didn't bring IP/G up as its not all that important. If they allowed you to pitch some of those 1IP/G guys further into games, it wouldn't change the game for better or worse much. However, if you set heavy appearance fatigue penalties, it would change managing pretty drastically. No more 2man rotations. No more tandems, where I pitch two 220IP guys 40 pitches every other day. No a lot of stuff. Wouldn't improve the game any. IT would just simply make it more like that other game. Ideally, this game should be the same as MLB baseball in its rules. But not the same in its limitations. The cool thing about a computer game, is you don't have to limit yourself as a manager, because of the physical limitations of players. This game is about "How do I score runs more efficiently than my opponent given what I have."...Not "Well, my aces are tired because they threw 50 pitches day before yesterday, so hopefully Tim Wakefield won't F up the clinching game for us."

I'll echo boogerlips sentiments above, and add that I don't believe those IP/G or PC limitations so often referred to are in fact actual, physical, limitations on pitchers in RL either. Just how they've trained themselves and how their managers choose to use them. And like I mentioned before, starters are throwing simulated bullpen session between starts anyways, it's not like the game is the only time they throw the ball during the season. These can throw a whole lot more than they do, and without injury or long term effects, if they train well and properly for it.

It's like a sprinter that trains for 100 or 200 meter race, but then is asked to run a marathon. The sprinter is much more likely to get injured in the marathon than in the sprints, but a marathon runner can still sprint. Likewise, asking a relief pitcher to spring can be detrimental, but a starter in the pen usually only affects their mindset.

It's all about the training and stamina for/from muscle development.

I like that I can manage guys in the sim the same way I could and would manage them in RL if I was in charge. These kind of IP/G limitations would prevent that type of managing. The real type of "what if" questions without going crazy with it (

Geez, is this what passes for critcal thinking? This thread was about the fact that it's possible to have Pete Martinez make 100+ appearance without penalty. It's not very realistic and if they wanted to address that issue, I suggested a possible solution. The response to that was "I bought those innings and I should be able to use them anyway I want."

Fair enough, using that line of logic, it should be just fine if Gagne started and used his 83 innings as a starter and not be affected by his real-life IP/G.

That's is a very consistent position. If Gagne is restricted by the way he pitched those innings, then so should be Martinez. On the other hand, if games per season is not taken into account, then why should innings per game. I really don't give a rat's rearend which.

Somehow, you guys have managed to drag into this rather simple point a discussion of ERA's, Tim Wakefield, muscle development, sprinting and marathoning when it's only about treating a pitcher's innings consistently.

Either a pitcher should be constricted to using his innings in a manner consistent with his real life stats or he should not.

Right now there is one set of rules for starters and another set of rules for relievers.

Quote: Originally posted by elbirdo on 10/27/2009Right now there is one set of rules for starters and another set of rules for relievers.

Starters and relievers are different, in general, so that makes sense. But since there is some overlap within seasons and across seasons, I'd rather see all pitching positions treated the way starters are now and allowed to be used as I, the manager, see fit within the constraints of how much they actually pitched in RL, not how often.

And the sprint/marathon analogy was not off-topic for the discussion, nor was my bringing up muscle development and training. The discussion was on pitch counts and how the sim should handle pitchers who pitch in many or few appearances over the course of the season and how their respective IP and pitches are used, even including warm ups and bullpen sessions. Training is very key to that, and the difference between a starter and reliever is much like the difference between a sprinter and a marathoner.

I thought that was pretty simple and straightforward actually. Bu, as I said above:

Starters and relievers are different, in general, so it makes sense to have differing standards. But since there is some overlap within seasons and across seasons, I'd rather see all pitching positions treated the way starters are now and allowed to be used as I, the manager, see fit within the constraints of how much they actually pitched in RL, not how often.

I actually think there is a very clear bright line here - what a pitcher could have likely done in real life with some degree of effectiveness. Starters are capable of coming into games late and pitching 1-2 innings. They prove this occasionally in very long games and every year in the playoffs and the All-Star game. Relievers cannot immediately begin starting. Almost every time a team wants to convert a reliever into a starter they use the offseason to do so. If they are forced to make the switch during the regular season the guy usually spends a month in the minors stretching his arm out and slowly adding to his maximum effective pitches in a game. Even so he often comes up throwing 4-5 innings per start and needs another month until he'll pitch 6+. I don't think that we should be allowed to use Gagne to pitch complete games because Gagne wouldn't have been able to pitch a complete game. Sure, he could have thrown the ball over the plate. But he would almost certainly have gotten killed by his 3rd or 4th inning, just as he would if you tried to use him as a starter in the sim. If you doubt this, watch Fernando Rodney's performance in the play-in game again... came in untouchable, but when they tried to stretch him past 2 innings he couldn't get the ball in the strike zone and if he did it was a can of corn.

What would be nice is if we were not limited by the average IP/G of a player. In reality most starters and swingmen are capable of pitching well beyond their average - that's why it's an average. Especially some of the guys who spent half the season starting and half in relief. I definitely think I should be able to use the 1916 Schupp for at least 6-7 innings; in 11 starts he threw 8 CG, 4 of them shutouts. Clearly he could go deep in games and remain effective. Yet, because his 19 relief appearances brought down his average IP/G, he can barely cut it as a starter. It would be nice if we could find a way to limit the number of innings a swingman can pitch based on, say, the 75th percentile of how deep he went into his starts if he made x+ starts. Doubt we'll ever see that, though.

Quote: Originally Posted By dahsdebater on 10/27/2009

Starters are capable of coming into games late and pitching 1-2 innings.

Of course they are. Never said they weren't. But don't you think doing it 2 out of every 3 games for an entire season is a bit unreal?

So if it's ok to strain credulity with a starter's innings, then it should be ok to strain credulity with a reliever's innings. Both or neither - that's my point - nothing more, nothing less.

I never advocated letting reliever's start, I simply took Booger's statement that " I want to be able to use the innings I bought when I want to use them" to it's logical conclusion.

"Illustrating absurdity by being absurd".

If I'm not mistaken, the current sim allows for a pitcher to divide his innings into 81 appearances and pitch at 100% assuming he pitches every other day. This makes the game much better as it allows more managerial strategy to take place. Guys with 500 or more innings should be allowed to make more than 81 appearances at 100%. King should be allowed as many as 110 appearances without appearance fatigue.
It wouldn't bother me if all pitchers who had fewer than 7IP/G in real life were bumped up to that number, but its not that big of a deal one way or the other. What you fail to see is what improves the game and what doesn't. IP/g and Appearances have zero connection to each other when your mind is set on improving the game. If there was a penalty for giving Pedro more than 29 appearance, because thats what he did in real life, then you're forcing my hand as a manager. I usually target 75-90 pitches for a starter, and I win more games because of it. If i'm forced to throw more than that because its Pedro, then I will either win fewer games or be forced to choose someone different. And that last choice directly makes the game worse. The single biggest flaw with this game is its limited database. Most of the realist ideas restrict the database, restrict your options as a manager, or both.

Elbirdo: "New chess rulz guyz! Bishops are now only allowed to move 3 spaces at one time. Its just not realistic for them to be able to move all the way across the board."

Quote: Originally Posted By boogerlips on 10/26/2009

Ideally, this game should be the same as MLB baseball in its rules. But not the same in its limitations.

This is one of the best boogerquotes (thats an actual word) ever. I gave myself a good, firm pat on the back after I wrote it.

Fine...so if we give Booger his due, I guess then I should be able to Start Gagne every other game for the first 18 games, and when he goes 9 straight shutouts, I drop him and pick up someone else.