I have had a problem recently with pitchers who were throwing a shutout or allowing 1 run being removed for relievers at the start of the 9th inning BEFORE they had reached their TPC total.  They were not removed for pinch hitters or double switch, often had 1-2-3 8th innings, and were not fatigued.  So I sent in this ticket to Customer Support for one scenario:

"Why was Steve Carlton pulled for a relief pitcher?

It was the beginning of the 9th inning, and Bruce Sutter entered the game to pitch. Carlton's TPC/MPC setting was 125/135, and his Call Bullpen was set to 1. Carlton had allowed a baserunner in the 8th inning on a walk, but the runner did not advance past first base. Carlton had thrown 122 pitches, he was not removed for a pinch hitter or a double switch, and he was not in any kind of trouble. But, he was not allowed to start the 9th inning.

Thank you."

This is the answer I received from Customer Service (7 days later):

"Carlton had thrown 122 pitches and had a target pitch count of 125. So, he had essentially met his target. He hadn't allowed any runs, but he had allowed more baserunners than innings pitched.

With a rested closer available, the manager was more interested in preserving the win than getting Carlton the CG or SHO.

Had he allowed two or fewer hits or walks, the manager would have brought him back out for the 9th. But since the baserunners allowed was greater than innings pitched, the manager opted for the closer.

Target pitch count is what's used to evaluate whether the pitcher should start an inning, max pitch count is how far he can go once an inning begins.

Hope that makes sense."

Does it make sense to you, or am I missing something?  [This is the 1972 Steve Carlton.]

It makes sense to me....you might disagree with it but I understand their logic.

If you or I were managing "live" Carlton stays in, if the first guy gets on bring on the closer.   I think the answer from admin is a simple mathematical formula to avoid a loss from a close to MPC starter. I don't find it too crazy, but if my closer came in and blew the game of course you'd have to screw me out of the ceiling.

Why even have a TARGET Pitch Count if the pitcher gets pulled when he has "essentially met his target" before his set TPC?

Why not have just a MAXIMUM Pitch Count, and as the pitcher approaches the MPC, he gets pulled for a RP?

The other explanation is that if the SP's in-game WHIP (hits+BB) is greater than 1.00, he gets pulled after 8 IP.  In Carlton's only 9 inning performance, he allowed 4 hits and 3 BB.  In his other CG (a loss), Carlton pitched 8 innings, allowed  5 runs, 6 hits, 3 BB.  (Carlton had 30 CG in 1972, and will probably end up with 5-6 CG in this league.)

The only reasons I even question why the SP doesn't have CG are the blown saves, and it fatigues the RP.  BTW, the closer on this team, Bruce Sutter, has 5 BSV -- He did pick up a save in this particular game, a 2-0 win.

 

Send a smail to Jerry Manuel....he takes Johan out all the time after he has cruised through 8 innings to turn the ball over to Frankie.    The SIM used 2010 logic not 1958 logic.

WIS is damned if they do, damned if they don't on this one.  I guarantee if they built the algorithm to keep Carlton in for this situation, some other owner will start a thread complaining that WIS "didn't use my closer and let my starter blow a lead in the 9th inning...why even have a closer designation if you're not going to use him???"

I can see arguments either way, but I think WIS's decision here is defensible.

I'd say the only thing a bit off about this is Carlton hitting for himself, and THEN being pulled.  Of course, your PH settings would also affect that, and 1972 Carlton's hitting stats (not horrible, for a pitcher), and who you had available on your bench to pinch hit.

Was the first batter of the inning a lefty or righty?  If the latter, I can see even more reason for bringing in Sutter.

John Lowenstein was the scheduled batter.  Jason Thompson was entered as a pinch hitter after Sutter was announced as the new pitcher.  Both Lowenstein and Thompson bat lefthanded.

Carlton batted in the bottom of the 7th inning and hit a sacrifice bunt.  The pitcher's spot was the first due up in the bottom of the 9th inning.  But Carlton pitched the top of the 8th inning, and Sutter pitched the top of the 9th inning.

And what TJ said:  "The SIM used 2010 logic not 1958 logic."  [OR 1972 logic] 

If I had played this game LIVE,  Carlton would have pitched in the 9th inning at least until he allowed a baserunner.  The WIS logic should consider this before bringing in the closer.

This scenario is not unusual.  I sent the ticket to Customer Service, because it has happened too many times to be a fluke.  1971 Vida Blue, 1972 Don Sutton, and 1978 Ron Guidry also seldom pitch 9 innings for me even when they are below their set TPC and are pitching well.

The best 'solution' is to just set TPC/MPC to 135/135. Carlton will have the opportunity to hit 125+ pitches more often, and won't always get there, if you're concerned that 135/start is too much--sometimes he'll complete the game with less pitches, get knocked out, etc.

Sorry to interupt but I have a different question. Can a 100 inning pitcher be effective in the setup role even though is IP per game is over 5?

Posted by chisox378 on 7/20/2010 11:11:00 PM (view original):
Sorry to interupt but I have a different question. Can a 100 inning pitcher be effective in the setup role even though is IP per game is over 5?

Yes.

Thats one of the clearest explanations from admin I've ever seen. "More baserunners that IPs" I'll have to rememebr that.

Same team and league.  8 hits + 3 BB = 11 baserunners in 9 innings.  Carlton's MPC was set to 135.

Actually, I'm glad Carlton finished the shutout, but now I'm really confused! 

What was the score?  Was it a save situation?  Was Sutter rested?  Can you figure out how many pitches he threw in the 9th?

The score was 5-0, not a save situation.  Sutter was 100%.  The 9th inning was fly out, strike out, strike out.  (How many pitches is that?)