This is something that I have been looking for around here, so I am hoping for a lot of input from the veterans. I think this game can be plenty intimidating so I was hoping to come up with a tier system to help people with building teams. I know this is probably a fool's errand since the players are so interdependent, but I wanted to at least try to get thoughts out there so newbies can use this along with the usage guide and other things to get accustomed to the sim.

When looking at players I usually look at things in this order:
I. efg
II. positive stats (ast%, dreb%, def, 3PM)
III. usg
IV. negative stats (to48, pf48)
V. mins

Also, I am trying to do this by position so you will see guys names pop up a few times. I will definitely need a lot of help sorting this out, since I am not too great at playing just yet. My goal is to rank these based on ability to build a team around in a league like the ODL so low minute monsters can lose some points. I'm doing this based of team's I've built, so if there are some glaring omissions point them out. This doesn't really account for specific strategies like a State Farm team or anything like that. This is definitely a fist draft, so please help me fill this in.

aside from theme restrictions KG shouldn't be used at C nor Lebron at PF

Posted by copernicus on 5/16/2016 2:00:00 PM (view original):
aside from theme restrictions KG shouldn't be used at C nor Lebron at PF

I went ahead and put a strike on those two. Though I'm a bit confused about KG as a center. He has some seasons where he has 28 Dreb% and 90 D as a center, which puts him in a class with Kareem, Dwight, Deandre, Walton, and Whiteside as a center. While thinking about this, I was reminded of the 02-03 season and added KG to the SF list.

yep, KG's 02-03 season is 100% at SF, that's why - as a general rule of thumb I believe it is best to play a dude at the smallest position he is effective at

Posted by copernicus on 5/16/2016 3:47:00 PM (view original):
yep, KG's 02-03 season is 100% at SF, that's why - as a general rule of thumb I believe it is best to play a dude at the smallest position he is effective at

That works for KG, but with some guys like Gerald Wallace I feel like playing them at smaller positions sacrifices assists.

while playing such players at their natural positions can cost you on the boards - not all players are perfect and there is always some give and take

I don't think you can simplify it that much. For one thing, names mean nothing in the sim. Nothing. You can say Wilt, but to a newbie, they don't know that you mean 66-67 Wilt. They might think 50ppg Wilt or a different version. The 66-67 Wilt is probably the best player in the sim, but if you don't understand why, you will build a **** team around him. If you don't understand why, you will probably use a different version, and almost no other version of Wilt is as good as some of the best versions of Kareem, Shaq, Dwight, and a couple of others.

Another thing: role is important. I consider both Jason Kidd (09-10) & Steph Curry (15-16) as upper tier PGs, yet they are at opposite ends of the spectrum in terms of usage, which means you build very different teams with them. One you build around; the other is someone you use to build around someone else. Thus it seems odd to put them in the same category.

I also disagree with some of what copernicus is saying. While I don't always believe in playing a player at the smallest position they can be played at, it is a good rule of thumb. Some guys like KG have so-so seasons that are 100% at SF but have better seasons IMO at PF (07-08, for example). If you're playing in a draft league, maybe you take the lesser season at the 3 because the better seasons are lower minute & not worth taking as high in a draft, but they are perfect for more open rule leagues. I almost never use Curry (15-16) at the 1 because he has relatively low ast% for the position.. so unless I'm using someone with higher ast% at another position, he's a 2 to me. And there are absolutely reasons to run Lebron at the 4 (3rd best record in wis history had him at the 4). That might be an extreme example, but it's a valid strategy and worth noting as people use it.

I applaud the effort... I just think you need to refine things a bit more. Usage & specific roles are the two most defining aspects that will mess any attempt to categorize simply by position.

ash if you're talking about the state farm stuff then yeah you can throw some of that positional logic out the window - maybe they'll fix that bull **** boost some day (I don't believe that for a second though)

So, you guys think this would be better served by marking people in categories. High usage scorers, low usage rebounders, assist kings, etc?

Posted by superrobb420 on 5/17/2016 9:18:00 AM (view original):
So, you guys think this would be better served by marking people in categories. High usage scorers, low usage rebounders, assist kings, etc?

The more useful it is, the more complex it's going to be. Usage, position & role are all big factors. Top tier players are going to fulfill multiple roles & generally be 100% at multiple positions, but not always. There are tweeners that don't really fall into one category but fit in many, like the aforementioned Wilt. The 66-67 Wilt is possibly the best player in the sim, but he's not a high usage guy, nor is he a low usage specialist. He does give you monster efg% at a reasonably high enough usage that you get a lot of points out of it, but his usage isn't high enough to keep people from going +3 if you're using a bomber attack with him. He gives you monster rebounding, particularly on the offensive side. He gives you good defense & low fouls while getting to the line a ton himself. He gives you incredible assists for a center, so he makes his teammates shoot better. Lots & lots of good, but what do you qualify him as? What do you need to build around him? What are his weaknesses? High turnovers & atrocious free throw shooting.

I'll do some thinking & see if I can communicate what I'm trying to say more clearly.

I keep starting to type stuff up, but I am coming nowhere closer to helping you with your original goal. I have my own system in my own mind, and it just doesn't translate to anything close to what you're setting out to do. I consider position, role, volume, etc when making any team, whether it's a draft league like the ODL or an open league, but I don't really have a ranking by position. Usage% dictates so much in the engine that it's really impossible to break it down except in a few cases.

I think I break it down more according to cap/league rules, as I find some players way more valuable in OLs than draft leagues, for example.

Yeah, I kind of figured that there was a reason something like this doesn't already exist. When i started, it was just me tryibg to figure out who would be best in the ODL. I always look at the thread even when I don't play because I like to know he reasoning behind the selections. Like in my mind, no one would draft Hakeem with David Robinson still available so I thought that there were tries to it. Wasn't really considering all the other stuff until I got half way through the centers

Posted by superrobb420 on 5/18/2016 9:01:00 AM (view original):
Yeah, I kind of figured that there was a reason something like this doesn't already exist. When i started, it was just me tryibg to figure out who would be best in the ODL. I always look at the thread even when I don't play because I like to know he reasoning behind the selections. Like in my mind, no one would draft Hakeem with David Robinson still available so I thought that there were tries to it. Wasn't really considering all the other stuff until I got half way through the centers

I guess I kind of have a big board in my head for the first round, but after that it's completely situational & dependent on who I drafted in the first round.

So what are the best years to pick for the players that are in the tiers?