I ask this because even in the few teams I have done I have seen players perform WAY below their actual stats.  The first team I made I gave up on the two guys about 10-15 games into the season, dropping them for waiver pickups.  I was able to recover from 1-9 to make the playoffs. 

Now with my 3rd team I have a Peja 07-08 that is shooting 36%/38% instead of 44%/44%.  He hasn't even been facing good defenders or double-teams.  In fact he has been facing pretty terrible defenders which is why it is so shocking to me.  His poor shooting has directly cost me 2 games and could be blamed in others.

Now it has only been 11 games so the sample size is very small.  However I'm in a very tough division so really can't wait half a season to find Peja still shoooting 36%.  So, should I except Peja to win me a few games soon as the numbers balance out?  Are some players just terrible for some unknown/hidden reason and I should just drop him now?

New player just looking for some insight from those with more sim experience.  Not sure if it's just that Peja is broken, if I'm having bad luck, or what.

Thanks in advance.

1.  Never go to the wavier wire...especially with big players.  You have a smaller pool of player to pick through, and you get to do it with 10% less money.

2.  Don't give up on a team after 10-15 games.  If you are solid maybe you can make a few adjustments, but for the most part you chalk it up to a learning experience and adjust your drafting logic accordingly.

3.  For WiS sim purposes 82 games is to small of a sample size to get statistical relevance (little joke here)

4.  11 games is way to early.  You have to look at how other teams are playing against you and what kind of usage and assists the rest of your team has.  Peja might be shooting alot at the end of quarters and the can adversely affect FG%. 

5.  Peja as a SF may not be facing strong defenders, but PF's and SG's that are 100% at SF may guard him some.  Think about how screwed Peja would be against defensive monoliths like Rodman, Jordan, and Troy Murphy (that is for you ash and felonius)

6.  Finally there are no broken players, just a broken sim.  If you are familiar with the 7 stages of grief you will realize that the hardcore sim basketball players are all at stage 7 which is acceptance and hope....

Acceptance that the sim sucks

Hope that seble is fired and tinman or anyone with passion for the basetball sim returns.

Thanks for quick reply.  I understand the sample size is ridiculously small and I understand about defensive positioning.  He hasn't faced tough defenders that way either (at least not for substantial time).  I have plenty of usage (over 100% for starters) and while I do use rookies a decent amount most of that is played behind Peja so he isn't on the court.  Ast% is definitely an area I'm not sure what to aim for but from what I have read that seems to still be rather disputed by even the experienced players.

I'm curious about your comment "Peja might be shooting a lot at the end of quarters".  Why would that negatively affect him?  Is there a hidden in-game fatigue in addition to the season fatigue % shown?  Or are you referring to something else?

If you have plenty of usage%, you should be running an uptempo offense.

Posted by ncmusician_7 on 2/10/2011 12:38:00 PM (view original):
If you have plenty of usage%, you should be running an uptempo offense.

Glad you said that because that is another question I had.  Was is a general target % for running Up Tempo?  I have about 110% usage and was going under the assumption that 100% would be the target for Half Court setting.   Can you run Up Tempo with around 100% or do you need more like 120-130%?

I also assume you have to factor your usage against what the other team is running.  I know with my last team I ran Half Court against Half Court and Slow Down against Up Tempo since I had only around 90% usage with my starters.

Up tempo is what is predominently run here.  Run up tempo with 100% and there should not be a problem....120-130% usage would not get you optimal stats for a given player since he would not get the ball as much...(I try not to run more usage than 110).  Now...why would you run 90% usage with slowdown?  You should be running uptempo so you can get enough possessions to win....teams setup as defensive stoppers still give up 105 per game.  A slow down offense better be coupled with insane offensive rebounding, insane defense, super low TO's, great FT attempts and percentage, and super insane eFG%.

Shooting at the end of quarters are often not quality shots.  Think of the length of some of these shots and many people on this sim adjust their teams to run a press for the last few minutes of a game so more defensive pressure could be likely.  Plus if you are losing alot Peja may be shooting more 3's than usual if you are set to move into a 3pt offense in the last x # of minutes.

I would like to see your entire team.  I am not necessarily the arbiter of all sim knowledge, but  I can often see a couple of things....but what do I know I have only been back 2 and a half months  lol?

The reason why I was running slow down with that other team... well that is what I got the best results with.  I went to game 7 of the conference finals running Slow against Up and Half against Half for my team with 90% usage.  Here is the core of that team:

Jason Kidd 09-10
Johnny Moore 81-82
John Drew 75-76
Troy Murphy 08-09
Wes Unseld 69-70
Connie Hawkins 68-69

My current team:

Steve Nash 07-08
Raja Bell 06-07
Peja 07-08
Randy Denton 71-72 / SMarion 07-08
Wilt 64-65 / Shaq 05-06

Those are the core of the teams.  I can list them all if you think it's needed.  I'm going to switch to Up Tempo and stick with it for a bit and see how it goes.  I do notice that all the "top owners" are running Up but for some reason I have had less success in the short samples where I have tried it.  So many variables it's hard to know much with certainty.

just checked out your team.....no way should you be running half-court...any team with nash should be running up-tempo imo...also peja had two really bag games(which do happen no matter the player) where he shot 8/36...that put his %s in an early hole...over time with a switch to up-tempo ill bet he gets those numbers a lot closer to his rl ones

Posted by mccheech on 2/10/2011 3:20:00 PM (view original):
The reason why I was running slow down with that other team... well that is what I got the best results with.  I went to game 7 of the conference finals running Slow against Up and Half against Half for my team with 90% usage.  Here is the core of that team:

Jason Kidd 09-10
Johnny Moore 81-82
John Drew 75-76
Troy Murphy 08-09
Wes Unseld 69-70
Connie Hawkins 68-69

My current team:

Steve Nash 07-08
Raja Bell 06-07
Peja 07-08
Randy Denton 71-72 / SMarion 07-08
Wilt 64-65 / Shaq 05-06

Those are the core of the teams.  I can list them all if you think it's needed.  I'm going to switch to Up Tempo and stick with it for a bit and see how it goes.  I do notice that all the "top owners" are running Up but for some reason I have had less success in the short samples where I have tried it.  So many variables it's hard to know much with certainty.

Pet Peeve rant:

QUIT COPYING OTHER PEOPLE'S TEAM AND WONDERING WHY YOU AREN'T GETTING THE SAME PERFORMANCE!!!!

You have only been in two leagues and you just, all on your own, dreamed up the Wilt/Shaq combo with Nash and Peja in the second league and in the first you go with Kidd, Murphy, and Unseld.

My first league I had Dream Bird MJ Magic, cheapos and got killed because of the lack of minutes.  Why would you draft those teams if you didn't find out what the other top teams are using.  This is so typical.  Learn the sim on your own, but don't be a hack and steal other peoples ideas.  This is one of the main reasons I am retiring from OL's.  I have built some killer teams that get killed by this type of bull **** cookie cutter lack of originality.

Whatever happened to the thrill of building a winner on your own without having to cheat.  It is like a joke thief in a comedy club.  You know some hack comes in and steals a bit and then kills with it.  It is an empty existence relying on the ingenuity of others for your own gain.

No one here is impressed with stealing...enter a theme league, and win there.

Agree with almost everything Malone said... I want to expound on one thing he said, however:

" A slow down offense better be coupled with insane offensive rebounding, insane defense, super low TO's, great FT attempts and percentage, and super insane eFG%."

And even then, you'll perform better running up-tempo.  The only time you should really run slow-down is if you absolutely know your opponent has a stronger team and are trying to cut down on the total number of possessions, giving the game a smaller sample size so that his superior stats will have less of a chance to normalize and therefore stomp you.

The only other time running slowdown is advantageous is if you do all of what Malone said AND have a team-possession penalty.  Check the possession penalty thread for more info on usage.  I pay very little attention to composite usage (I couldn't tell you what it is for any team that I've ran) and more attention to tiers.


One other knowledge drop for you:  The number one coaching (not drafting) mistake most owners make is to react too much.  Knee jerks kill sim teams.  You're better off setting up one way and sticking to it than changing things every 10 games.  70% of success in this sim is drafting a good team.  5% is coaching it well.  25% is blind luck.

I haven't copied anyones team.  I have built all my teams with my own ideas and own focus.  If you think I am copying then please show me what team I am copying and how I would have known about it.  Don't just toss around accusations.  Just because you approached this sim as a "build a dream team" doesn't mean everyone does.  While playing with certain known players does interest me I cared a lot more about building a winner.  So I read the forums for what I could find and talked to a buddy (phunke1) who has done about 20 teams.

I had been wanting to build a team with Shaq because I tend to focus on high fg% and a buddy of mine told me about that Wilt and I saw they fit together.  As for Kidd, Murphy, & Unseld I have no idea why you think that makes me a copy so not sure how to respond.  Same with Nash and Peja.  I was making my 3rd team and so I felt like a 3pt oriented team was appropriate.  So looking for lots of high % 3s lead me to Nash & Peja.  I don't even know of another team I have seen in my leagues that uses either of those so I could have hardly stole them.  I wanted a 3s team and also wanted to try Shaq so it all came together since that game me the paint I needed to keep defense honest.

My second league had a guy named "edplumly" who named his team "title defense" and had one team with one championship.  He won that team as well.  Using the simmatchup I see he has a 3rd team called "2nd title defense".  So if I wanted to just copy a team then I would be running that.  I want to build a team on my own that wins so I am looking to learn so I can do just that.

Believe whatever you want but keep it to yourself because it isn't true and is offensive for you to make such statements.

Edit:  I also never have made any claims that I was amazing or anything of the like so I don't know why you seem to be responding as if I did.  I have purposefully avoided theme leagues in the beginning because I know the competition is much harder both from my football experience and from my buddy who has done them.  I'm trying to learn some things so I take the step up to themes.  That is why your post is so offense.  I'm admitting I don't know and looking from help from more experienced owners and you are coming at me like I am talking trash about how great I am while just stealing peoples teams.  Neither of which has any thread of truth to it.

@ashamael
Thanks for reply.  Especially since we are currently in the same division together.  :P

I'm assuming that you are basically saying the sim is broken and Up Tempo is just better for all teams unless you feel you aren't as good as the other team?  So tempo setting has less to do with the build of your team and more with how you feel you matchup with your opponent in regard to who good/bad your team is in relation to theirs?

Posted by mccheech on 2/10/2011 4:38:00 PM (view original):
I haven't copied anyones team.  I have built all my teams with my own ideas and own focus.  If you think I am copying then please show me what team I am copying and how I would have known about it.  Don't just toss around accusations.  Just because you approached this sim as a "build a dream team" doesn't mean everyone does.  While playing with certain known players does interest me I cared a lot more about building a winner.  So I read the forums for what I could find and talked to a buddy (phunke1) who has done about 20 teams.

I had been wanting to build a team with Shaq because I tend to focus on high fg% and a buddy of mine told me about that Wilt and I saw they fit together.  As for Kidd, Murphy, & Unseld I have no idea why you think that makes me a copy so not sure how to respond.  Same with Nash and Peja.  I was making my 3rd team and so I felt like a 3pt oriented team was appropriate.  So looking for lots of high % 3s lead me to Nash & Peja.  I don't even know of another team I have seen in my leagues that uses either of those so I could have hardly stole them.  I wanted a 3s team and also wanted to try Shaq so it all came together since that game me the paint I needed to keep defense honest.

My second league had a guy named "edplumly" who named his team "title defense" and had one team with one championship.  He won that team as well.  Using the simmatchup I see he has a 3rd team called "2nd title defense".  So if I wanted to just copy a team then I would be running that.  I want to build a team on my own that wins so I am looking to learn so I can do just that.

Believe whatever you want but keep it to yourself because it isn't true and is offensive for you to make such statements.

Edit:  I also never have made any claims that I was amazing or anything of the like so I don't know why you seem to be responding as if I did.  I have purposefully avoided theme leagues in the beginning because I know the competition is much harder both from my football experience and from my buddy who has done them.  I'm trying to learn some things so I take the step up to themes.  That is why your post is so offense.  I'm admitting I don't know and looking from help from more experienced owners and you are coming at me like I am talking trash about how great I am while just stealing peoples teams.  Neither of which has any thread of truth to it.

Keep it to myself...YOU ARE IN THE WRONG PART OF THE INTERNET FOR THAT.

edplumly's teams have some variation to them....Please though....Nash, Peja, little Shaq and little Wilt is been done roughly a thousand times in this version of the sim and I refuse to believe this is your own idea.  It is the VERY DEFINITION of cookie cutter.

I never said you were talking trash.  I never said you weren't earnestly looking for help, but the fact that you take the first team to a 57-25 record with a cookie cutter type team is suspect in and of itself.  There is no way you organically came up with two cookie cutters.

Here is one thing that I look at:
Kidd, Peja, and Unseld.....How did you come up with that for your first team?  Did you live in Louisville, KY as a Notre Dame fan who was also a Mavs, Nets, or Suns fan?  First teams are usually based on the guys you know.

Then you get beat so you go total cookie cutter with:
Shaq (you wanted Shaq becuase of high FG%...then why not look at Cornbread Maxwell, McHale, Barkley, Howard, and etc...?) and Wilt (which Phunke helped you with) with Nash and Peja?  Maybe you are a Suns fan, but then Peja...and pairing all of that together....Total BS.

I toss around accusations because it is guys like you that have ruined OL's with all of the cookie cutter crap.  I would rather see you play in theme leagues where you can REALLY learn the sim rather than learn loopholes.  Theme leagues provide far more fun and creativity vs. the tired OL experience.

The reason he said that is that you've "stumbled" onto the most used players in the sim in either this salary structure or the previous one.  If you've been reading the forums, I don't see how you've missed the Nash/Peja conversation.  If you are, in fact, completely naive, there was an almost-guaranteed 50+ win combination of Nash, Ray Allen, Peja, Rodman & Moses in the previous 'version' of the sim (same engine, just different salaries now).  It did well, then an owner here, Slymonium, made several teams called "Unoriginal Bastard" running that line-up and absolutely dominated.  The result was a bunch of copycats... so what was sort of a problem became even worse.  The same thing happened with me and running Barkley/Wilt + a variety of other combinations... many players started doing the Barkley/Wilt crap.  This issue, if you call it one, goes back well before I was even around... when someone does something that wins a lot, other players catch on and then copy it.  Some straight up copy the roster while others copy the ideas that went behind the team.  People who originate the idea(s) often take offense to it.  Others who just hate seeing the same type of teams everywhere take offense to it.

Towards the end of the last salary structure, Kidd & Murphy were used like crazy.  Remember that Barkley/Wilt thing I was talking about?  Put those four together and you've got insanity.  Just grab a high usage SG that shoots threes and gets to the line and you were golden.  Kidd is actually even better now and that discussion has gone on pretty extensively... though much of that has been throughout the theme league circuit.

All in all, it's pretty amazing how you stumbled onto a combination of players that are so infamous without looking at the top 25 or straight-up copying someone in a league you've been in.  That's why Malone said what he said.

"So tempo setting has less to do with the build of your team and more with how you feel you matchup with your opponent in regard to who good/bad your team is in relation to theirs?"

Pretty much.  This sim is very simple:  Get more possessions than your opponent and do more in them (that's Basketball, actually, which is also very simple).  If you can find a way to get more possessions than your opponent (out-rebound them, turn the ball over less) and a way to score more (shoot a higher fg%, get more threes, get to the line more), you win.  Because the sim is essentially a bunch of dice rolls, the more dice rolls, the less chance for outliers to effect the result of the game.  Thus, you always want as many possessions as possible in the game to maximize your chances of winning... unless you're going against an obvious superior team.  In that case, you want the opposite.

There will be several that disagree with this and will toss out other specific numbers to achieve.  But WISNBA's all-time championship leader (spread out over at least 4 aliases) agrees with this, even though he can't post in the forums anymore.  The reigning BOWIS champ (nc7) already posted in this thread and told you much of the same.  Not to toot my own horn, but I've won quite a few myself.