I've updated the salary spreadsheet with an adjusted formula.  Please post feedback on the second version here.  Thanks.

Thanks, Seble --

The by far most popular combo -- Rodman and Moses -- is actually cheaper now.  A lineup of the the top five most popular players -- Rodman, Moses, Peja, Barros, and Jordan -- would cost $41.1 now, it would only cost $40.7 under the new salaries. 

I'd like to see the cost for rebounders escalated the same way the cost for three point shooters has been. I think the same cookie cutters lineups are possible under the proposed salaries, but there should also be opportunity for some new cookie cutters to challenge the field as well, particularly with the 09-10 players in the mix.

At this point, given no planned changes to the sim algorithms, I'd vote for just releasing the update with the new proposed salaries.  As much as I'd like to see Rodman and Moses broken up, I'd rather just have the new release move forward.   Perhaps WIS can re-evaluate things annually to see what adjustments can be made to keep the game fresh.

Agreed on all points.

How long would it take seble to turn around an adjustment to rebounding salaries?  Seems like he turned around this new salary list pretty quick.  I agree wth Abrondon's points, but wouldn't mind waiting a week or two for a tweak to salaries based on rebounding.

the 05-06 Chauncey Billups season and the 08-09 Jason Kidd season both were lowered by 500-600k - these are two of the most over-used PG seasons currently

something does not compute, ideas?

I still think there needs to be a higher emphasis on rebounding in the salary structure, but you're making progress.

I also think that ignoring defensive rating (and you are) is a mistake.  If you call yourself a basketball fan at all, the whole Troy Murphy/Zach Randolph being as high/even with Scottie Pippen/Hakeem Olajuwon/Bill Russell should instantly bring up alarm bells.  You admitted in the other thread you don't think dreb% meshes well, but you'd have to "start all over".  You say it'd leave drating with just steals/blocks.  How is putting out a ridiculous, inaccurate number a good thing?  How is that saying Troy Murphy is = Bill Russell a good thing??

I'd be embarrassed as a basketball fan to put out anything that suggested the last sentence was even close to being true.

all-in-all, salaries are still too cheap.  Again, bumping up the cost based on nothing but rebounding will help.  I don't know the salary formula, but I would say an increase of 10-20% across the board wouldn't be too much... and in cases of guys like Rodman (hello almost 50% creb%), there should be an even greater increase.

this squad is well on it's way to a 60+ win season for me at the moment:

Moses	Malone	1978-79	Houston Rockets	C	8999416	9028638	29222
Shawn	Marion	2005-06	Phoenix Suns	PF	8991794	8618845	-372949
Tracy	McGrady	2001-02	Orlando Magic	SG	8032090	7453002	-579088
Ben	Wallace	2002-03	Detroit Pistons	PF	6871439	6621578	-249861
Chauncey	Billups	2005-06	Detroit Pistons	PG	7104074	6616942	-487132
							-1659808

so there's a disconnect here because the over-used, highly valued players represented here (and others like them) are still costing less than they do currently

and meanwhile btw guys like Baylor, Havlicek, Hayes, Cunningham et al are still grossly over priced

I can further increase the weight on rebounding if that's a common feeling.  Is there a certain area that seems overpriced?

Posted by felonius on 8/23/2010 2:09:00 PM (view original):
the 05-06 Chauncey Billups season and the 08-09 Jason Kidd season both were lowered by 500-600k - these are two of the most over-used PG seasons currently

something does not compute, ideas?

This is part of the issue for me.  Ideally, the best guard would have a value equal to the best center.  Low post guys are always higher not because they rebound but because there is no equivalent to rebounding for a guard.  The salary structure needs something that puts a needed value to back court costs that can offset the rebounding cost down low.  Does this make sense?

Some guards are assist monsters others are 3 point guys and a few actually pull in both.  Wouldn't an increase to dimes and bombs actually help it out?

Ideally the low post players salaries were fine but the 4 mil Millers and Rices actually increased the Moses and Rodman types because you could have both if you wanted.  But if your guards (i.e., the desired guards like Chauncey and Kidd) cost more then you are forced to make choices.

In the end I would like to see different team structures and compilations.  If the engine stays status quo then there will be the same team structures.  Specially if the cookie cutter is sub 42 mil still.  I know all players are subject to the same salary formula and weights but I would be fine if anyone with a PG or SG tag had an additional 10% to their salary.  Then it makes having a low post team different from having a 3 pointer team.  I think that is what we want the most.

Changing salaries as listed does not fix the issue IMO.  And my biggest compliant is the cookie cutter teams.

Sorry for the ramble... went on the fly and no time to re-read and shorten.  But wanted to voice a little bit before it was too late.

Posted by felonius on 8/23/2010 2:14:00 PM (view original):
this squad is well on it's way to a 60+ win season for me at the moment:

Moses	Malone	1978-79	Houston Rockets	C	8999416	9028638	29222
Shawn	Marion	2005-06	Phoenix Suns	PF	8991794	8618845	-372949
Tracy	McGrady	2001-02	Orlando Magic	SG	8032090	7453002	-579088
Ben	Wallace	2002-03	Detroit Pistons	PF	6871439	6621578	-249861
Chauncey	Billups	2005-06	Detroit Pistons	PG	7104074	6616942	-487132
							-1659808

so there's a disconnect here because the over-used, highly valued players represented here (and others like them) are still costing less than they do currently

and meanwhile btw guys like Baylor, Havlicek, Hayes, Cunningham et al are still grossly over priced

Baylor, Havlicek, et al.... screams FG% is over priced.... yes?  It is hard to use them with their FG%... and I do not want to start the whole normalization between eras issue again.  But it is what it is I guess.

jakotay, doesn't increasing the cost of efficient offense force a change in present cookie cutter approaches?  Rice's popular seasons are now much more expensive, so it's harder to team him with, say, Moses and Rodman without giving something up.  This seems like progress to me.

And why do you think FG% is overpriced?  If anything I would say that it's been underpriced because Baylor, Havlicek, etc., have been essentially unusable for at least two years yet they are generally quite expensive.

Posted by seble on 8/23/2010 2:40:00 PM (view original):
I can further increase the weight on rebounding if that's a common feeling.  Is there a certain area that seems overpriced?

Agreed rebounding needs even more emphasis

Posted by ashamael on 8/23/2010 2:10:00 PM (view original):
I still think there needs to be a higher emphasis on rebounding in the salary structure, but you're making progress.

I also think that ignoring defensive rating (and you are) is a mistake.  If you call yourself a basketball fan at all, the whole Troy Murphy/Zach Randolph being as high/even with Scottie Pippen/Hakeem Olajuwon/Bill Russell should instantly bring up alarm bells.  You admitted in the other thread you don't think dreb% meshes well, but you'd have to "start all over".  You say it'd leave drating with just steals/blocks.  How is putting out a ridiculous, inaccurate number a good thing?  How is that saying Troy Murphy is = Bill Russell a good thing??

I'd be embarrassed as a basketball fan to put out anything that suggested the last sentence was even close to being true.

all-in-all, salaries are still too cheap.  Again, bumping up the cost based on nothing but rebounding will help.  I don't know the salary formula, but I would say an increase of 10-20% across the board wouldn't be too much... and in cases of guys like Rodman (hello almost 50% creb%), there should be an even greater increase.

Agree with all of this

Posted by longtallbrad on 8/23/2010 3:14:00 PM (view original):
jakotay, doesn't increasing the cost of efficient offense force a change in present cookie cutter approaches?  Rice's popular seasons are now much more expensive, so it's harder to team him with, say, Moses and Rodman without giving something up.  This seems like progress to me.

And why do you think FG% is overpriced?  If anything I would say that it's been underpriced because Baylor, Havlicek, etc., have been essentially unusable for at least two years yet they are generally quite expensive.

For clarification...

See felonius; team above.  That team, a cookie cutter IMO cost less.  The only thing is forces is an improved bench.  Sure Rice took a hit... but Mcgrady did not.  Billups did not.  Many others are helped.  We hit 3 pointers but not dimes.  I still think guards are not hit hard enough.  McGrady and Billups should also be going up in value.  

I will go back to the salaries and make sure what I imported and ran is without error.  i take salaries and adjust/weight by sim output to get a salary of my own.  If my salary is higher than there's, they are the value guys.  All the seasons listed above by felonius are in the black (whereas the red mean their salary is lower than their output in the sim).... And based on sim output the stats that the bigs get occur more often.  So I still feel stats typically tied to back court guys are under priced.

As it sits.... felonius' team costing less is not progress to me.  

I meat to say the older players have no value because "typically" their FG% is low.  If anything else, FG% or eFG% cost kills them.  So I agree they are unusable but more so because the engine kills you for poor FG%... its not the cost.  But this is based more in the efficiency based game it has become.
 

If high fg% tacks on to salary (as it should), low fg% should take away from salary.
fg%+ should do something.  As it is, I think that guys are getting priced based on the theory that it works when it does not, in fact, do anything.

I could be wrong on this.

Also, if I can get 66-67 Wilt, 91-92 Rodman, 78-79 Moses and any Jordan, players are too cheap (in a $42M league).

As it stands, higher cap leagues already have a lot of redundant minutes with a few exceptions.  The new salaries will make this worse.