I did.

updated/completely revamped the OP with the results of 2+ years of testing.  This strat is bonafide now, so I figured I'd clean up the OP that was more questions than answers.  I reckon this is a full-fledged guide now.

I'm about to do my second ever open league. Chose to try a state farm strategy again. The last time I did one on accident with Stockton, Kidd, Magic, LeBron, Noah but I was ultimately let down by not giving any attention to the bench.

This time I decided to be okay with clones and ended up with a team that is very similar to ash's latest posted team. I hope I don't step on anyone's toes but like the first post says, if you are all in on this strategy Stockton, Stockton, Magic, Bron usually has a big part. I'll try to post my results.

Went 12-2 in the playoffs.  Check these stats out:

Name	GP	GS	Min	Pts	FG%	3Pt%	FT%	OReb	Reb	Ast	TO	Stl	Blk	PF
12-13 LeBron James	14	14	37.5	40.9	73.6	58.5	80.5	1.0	7.8	5.5	3.6	2.2	0.9	1.7
94-95 John Stockton	14	14	37.4	23.6	69.1	55.9	81.0	1.1	3.6	10.0	4.3	2.6	0.3	2.9
89-90 John Stockton	14	14	37.7	22.6	61.4	48.1	83.3	0.6	2.4	10.4	3.9	3.5	0.2	3.4
83-84 Magic Johnson	14	14	32.4	16.4	69.8	33.3	89.2	0.9	6.1	6.6	3.4	3.1	0.8	2.4
14-15 Joakim Noah	14	0	26.4	8.4	58.2	0	68.8	2.2	8.2	3.7	1.9	0.4	0.6	2.8
95-96 Chris Webber	13	0	8.1	7.8	57.9	27.3	64.7	0.4	2.4	0.8	1.0	0.7	0.0	0.4
00-01 Toni Kukoc	14	0	7.9	6.9	62.3	50.0	60.0	0.2	1.8	1.6	0.8	0.1	0.0	0.3
2015 Charles Harper (R)	6	0	9.8	6.0	46.4	28.6	72.7	0.2	0.8	0.5	0.8	0.2	0.0	0.7
74-75 Tom Boerwinkle	14	14	15.3	5.5	58.2	30.0	66.7	1.0	4.0	3.4	1.3	0.5	0.6	2.2
04-05 Raul Lopez	12	0	7.9	3.8	48.3	54.5	100.0	0.0	0.7	2.3	1.0	0.3	0.1	1.2
13-14 Steve Nash	6	0	9.3	3.7	50.0	33.3	91.7	0.0	1.3	2.0	0.3	0.2	0.0	0.7
90-91 Corey Gaines	4	0	9.5	3.3	37.5	20.0	0	0.0	0.5	2.0	0.0	0.5	0.0	1.3
77-78 Tom Boerwinkle	4	0	5.0	2.5	55.6	0.0	0	0.3	2.0	0.0	0.3	0.3	0.0	1.0
2015 Paul Jarmon (R)	10	0	6.9	2.5	55.6	0.0	83.3	0.3	1.8	0.7	0.5	0.1	0.0	0.9
2015 David Pennell (R)	14	0	13.7	2.1	41.4	0.0	62.5	1.5	4.7	0.4	1.5	0.1	0.3	1.8
TOTALS	14			144.6	64.4	48.4	79.3	9.2	44.3	46.6	23.3	13.9	3.7	20.7
OPPONENTS	14			128.2	51.6	39.6	78.8	13.3	38.6	36.3	22.8	13.5	4.9	18.7

144.6 ppg & 68.5% efg%!

Name	Min%	Usage%	eFG%	TS%	OReb%	DReb%	Ast%	Stl%	Blk%	Tov%	Tov%#	Blk%#	Ast%#	PP48
12-13 LeBron James	78.2	29.8	78.4	79.6	3.7	18.0	11.9	2.46	1.25	12.2	10.3	1.63	18.9	52.4
94-95 John Stockton	77.9	19.7	77.7	79.0	4.0	6.6	21.7	2.95	0.39	22.3	14.7	0.50	27.3	30.4
89-90 John Stockton	78.6	20.8	64.5	67.9	2.4	4.7	22.4	3.87	0.29	18.8	12.5	0.37	27.9	28.8
83-84 Magic Johnson	67.5	17.1	70.5	73.7	3.7	16.0	16.7	3.95	1.22	23.6	16.2	1.60	20.2	24.3
14-15 Joakim Noah	55.1	12.8	58.2	59.7	11.6	22.5	11.4	0.68	1.09	21.0	14.8	1.43	12.9	15.2
95-96 Chris Webber	15.6	35.1	59.9	61.1	6.6	24.6	8.5	3.57	0.00	13.5	12.1	0.00	12.9	46.6
00-01 Toni Kukoc	16.5	27.8	69.7	69.5	3.8	19.7	16.1	0.75	0.00	13.6	10.7	0.00	22.3	41.9
74-75 Tom Boerwinkle	31.9	14.2	60.9	62.5	9.1	19.5	17.8	1.36	1.88	22.6	14.2	2.46	20.3	17.3
04-05 Raul Lopez	14.1	18.6	58.6	67.1	0.0	8.4	23.9	1.75	0.53	25.9	16.2	0.69	27.2	23.2
2015 Charles Harper (R)	8.8	24.5	50.0	54.8	2.4	6.7	4.1	0.71	0.00	13.2	12.2	0.00	5.0	29.3
2015 David Pennell (R)	28.6	10.7	41.4	44.6	15.2	23.3	2.5	0.22	1.05	39.2	35.3	1.37	2.7	7.3
2015 Paul Jarmon (R)	10.3	14.2	55.6	60.6	6.0	21.6	8.2	0.60	0.00	19.5	15.3	0.00	9.3	17.4
13-14 Steve Nash	8.3	11.8	55.0	72.0	0.0	14.2	17.4	0.74	0.00	11.6	6.8	0.00	18.7	18.9
90-91 Corey Gaines	5.7	16.1	40.6	40.6	0.0	5.2	17.1	2.19	0.00	0.0	0.0	0.00	19.6	16.4
77-78 Tom Boerwinkle	3.0	19.1	55.6	55.6	7.0	34.7	0.0	2.08	0.00	10.0	10.0	0.00	0.0	24.0
TEAM		100.0	68.5	70.7	26.7	72.5	78.7	12.10	3.90	18.5	13.5	5.10	78.7	28.9

Decided I wanted to do one with Curry, which made reaching ridiculous ast% numbers a challenge (basically replacing a 45ish% stockton with 27% Curry). Team isn't as good because Rose is no Lebron on either end of the floor & the Magic I had to use to avoid possession penalties has below average defense, but still managed 61 wins & the division. Curry was ridiculous (405 threes)!

Name	GP	GS	Min	Pts	FG%	3Pt%	FT%	OReb	Reb	Ast	TO	Stl	Blk	PF
14-15 Stephen Curry	82	82	32.7	30.2	58.6	54.2	93.1	0.6	4.6	5.3	4.0	2.6	0.3	1.8
90-91 Magic Johnson	82	82	36.6	21.0	57.1	36.6	91.8	1.1	7.4	7.7	4.5	1.4	0.3	1.7
94-95 John Stockton	82	82	35.9	17.6	63.0	54.5	79.6	0.6	3.8	8.2	3.5	2.8	0.4	2.6
91-92 Larry Bird	82	0	20.7	12.0	52.0	46.7	94.0	0.6	5.8	2.2	1.9	0.5	0.5	1.1
95-96 Jalen Rose	82	82	26.5	11.5	59.1	36.9	70.1	0.5	3.8	4.2	3.0	0.7	0.6	2.7
11-12 Manu Ginobili	81	0	12.5	8.6	59.6	49.2	84.4	0.4	2.3	1.8	1.4	0.5	0.2	0.8
14-15 Joakim Noah	82	14	25.5	7.3	51.4	20.0	60.3	2.2	7.7	3.0	1.7	0.7	1.0	2.3
2016 William Williams (R)	22	0	15.0	6.5	35.2	30.0	83.9	1.1	3.4	0.8	1.1	0.8	0.5	1.9
00-01 Toni Kukoc	77	0	8.2	5.3	53.7	51.6	69.4	0.3	1.4	1.1	0.8	0.2	0.1	0.5
74-75 Tom Boerwinkle	82	68	14.7	5.2	58.3	39.4	83.0	1.0	5.0	2.3	1.1	0.5	0.7	1.7
2016 Keith Garrett (R)	68	0	8.5	3.7	39.9	15.2	61.5	0.2	0.8	0.9	1.0	0.5	0.1	0.8
2016 Shane Hall (R)	65	0	10.0	3.2	65.5	0	50.0	0.5	1.7	0.1	0.8	0.1	0.4	1.3
90-91 Corey Gaines	28	0	8.1	2.4	37.0	29.4	80.0	0.1	0.6	2.1	0.5	0.4	0.0	0.8
03-04 Rod Strickland	35	0	8.1	2.4	32.6	50.0	86.2	0.3	1.1	1.3	0.7	0.2	0.1	0.4
88-89 Sidney Lowe	33	0	7.9	0.7	36.0	50.0	100.0	0.1	1.3	2.0	0.4	0.5	0.0	0.6
TOTALS	82			127.9	56.0	47.2	82.2	8.4	45.9	38.8	24.2	10.9	4.5	18.1
OPPONENTS	82			120.0	48.6	39.1	76.6	15.3	47.1	33.1	19.5	14.0	4.6	18.6

Name	Min%	Usage%	eFG%	TS%	OReb%	DReb%	Ast%	Stl%	Blk%	Tov%	Tov%#	Blk%#	Ast%#	PP48
14-15 Stephen Curry	67.8	29.2	72.3	75.5	2.1	11.2	15.9	3.38	0.38	16.8	13.8	0.46	23.3	44.3
90-91 Magic Johnson	75.9	21.8	61.9	67.2	3.6	15.8	20.9	1.67	0.36	22.4	16.2	0.43	26.4	27.5
94-95 John Stockton	74.4	17.4	70.5	72.1	2.0	8.1	22.7	3.37	0.48	22.4	14.7	0.58	28.1	23.6
91-92 Larry Bird	43.0	22.8	56.1	59.7	3.5	22.9	10.4	1.07	1.15	15.5	13.1	1.38	13.5	27.9
95-96 Jalen Rose	55.0	17.9	62.2	64.4	2.2	11.3	15.8	1.09	1.17	25.2	18.6	1.40	19.1	20.8
11-12 Manu Ginobili	25.6	23.0	70.9	73.4	3.4	14.5	13.8	1.71	0.87	19.1	15.4	1.04	18.4	33.0
14-15 Joakim Noah	52.9	13.4	51.5	53.3	10.4	19.7	11.5	1.14	1.92	20.0	14.9	2.30	13.1	13.8
74-75 Tom Boerwinkle	30.5	13.7	60.6	65.7	8.2	24.8	15.6	1.33	2.23	21.2	14.5	2.67	17.9	17.1
00-01 Toni Kukoc	16.0	23.9	62.2	64.1	4.2	12.6	13.4	0.96	0.62	15.8	12.9	0.74	17.6	31.2
2016 Keith Garrett (R)	14.6	23.7	42.3	45.2	3.1	6.3	10.6	2.47	0.34	19.7	16.7	0.41	12.8	20.8
2016 Shane Hall (R)	16.5	12.8	65.5	64.6	6.5	10.8	0.9	0.60	1.73	24.3	23.6	2.07	1.1	15.1
2016 William Williams (R)	8.3	23.8	37.1	41.7	9.1	13.6	5.4	2.22	1.63	12.6	11.6	1.95	6.5	20.9
03-04 Rod Strickland	7.2	17.8	33.1	41.3	5.1	8.3	15.2	0.91	0.34	20.4	15.1	0.41	16.9	14.1
90-91 Corey Gaines	5.8	15.9	40.4	43.3	1.6	5.2	25.1	2.08	0.00	15.3	9.4	0.00	28.4	14.1
88-89 Sidney Lowe	6.6	6.0	38.0	41.8	1.8	13.9	24.5	2.97	0.19	33.1	12.5	0.22	25.3	4.0
TEAM		100.0	62.5	65.7	20.8	71.1	79.4	9.75	4.55	19.9	15.1	5.45	79.4	25.4

loved seeing Curry go nuts.

Curious which team is better in your opinion Ash: State Farm or double Steph, double Rodman, Shaq?

I feel better about 3xSteph, 3xWorm, 2xShaq in a 7-game series versus a variety of opponents than I do the State Farm concept, but only barely.

I'm not able to succeed in the draft leagues, so I don't think I'll ever return to play it in OL, but has anyone tried to get "The Bump" with 02-03 KG at C?

Posted by jhsukow on 3/15/2016 10:33:00 PM (view original):
I'm not able to succeed in the draft leagues, so I don't think I'll ever return to play it in OL, but has anyone tried to get "The Bump" with 02-03 KG at C?

I haven't seen it. I think there are much better options available at his usage that you can use at other positions while keeping even higher ast% at the 5, but you never know.

nc did well in the ODL with the bump once. I think he won his division & made it to the conference finals with it or something.

I won my division in the ODL with the assist bump strategy. slymonium won a title in the $50M season specific draft league using the assist bump strategy.

Latest attempt:

Name	GP	GS	Min	Pts	FG%	3Pt%	FT%	OReb	Reb	Ast	TO	Stl	Blk	PF
12-13 LeBron James	82	82	35.9	35.3	72.9	50.7	73.4	0.9	9.7	5.4	3.8	1.8	1.0	1.2
94-95 John Stockton	82	82	35.8	20.0	67.0	56.3	85.2	0.6	3.5	8.9	3.6	2.7	0.5	2.7
85-86 Magic Johnson	82	82	32.1	18.5	64.7	22.6	88.4	0.8	5.4	7.0	3.8	1.4	0.3	1.7
87-88 John Stockton	82	82	35.4	17.3	71.4	43.3	84.0	0.4	2.7	10.0	2.6	2.7	0.3	3.0
14-15 Kevin Durant	82	0	11.4	10.8	60.8	49.7	84.4	0.1	2.8	1.2	1.2	0.3	0.3	0.4
14-15 Joakim Noah	82	12	25.6	8.3	51.6	20.0	59.4	2.2	8.7	3.5	1.6	0.9	1.0	2.2
2016 Ronald Anderson (R)	77	0	11.9	6.3	57.3	40.5	56.1	1.1	3.6	0.4	0.5	0.2	0.9	1.0
2016 Anthony Zombory (R)	76	0	11.4	5.8	45.0	35.7	87.5	0.4	1.2	0.8	0.7	0.4	0.0	1.1
74-75 Tom Boerwinkle	82	70	14.6	5.5	60.1	31.0	79.3	0.9	5.1	2.6	1.3	0.2	0.6	1.7
04-05 Raul Lopez	61	0	8.5	2.9	42.4	52.8	76.7	0.1	0.8	1.7	1.0	0.5	0.0	1.2
2016 Frankie Bailey (R)	67	0	10.7	2.9	39.2	20.9	69.6	0.5	2.8	0.4	0.5	0.3	0.1	1.8
13-14 Steve Nash	36	0	8.8	2.8	33.3	39.1	88.5	0.1	0.6	1.9	1.0	0.2	0.0	0.4
90-91 Corey Gaines	31	0	7.5	2.1	37.1	21.1	100.0	0.1	0.5	1.6	0.7	0.3	0.1	0.6
93-94 Elliot Perry	30	0	8.9	1.9	31.4	0.0	68.4	0.3	0.8	2.1	1.3	0.7	0.0	0.8
88-89 Sidney Lowe	32	0	8.0	0.5	20.0	0.0	62.5	0.2	1.7	2.1	0.3	0.7	0.1	0.8
TOTALS	82			134.5	62.5	46.1	78.0	8.1	46.5	44.2	21.4	12.0	5.0	18.4
OPPONENTS	82			113.8	46.2	35.1	75.9	16.2	43.6	30.8	20.3	12.4	4.8	18.6

Name	Min%	Usage%	eFG%	TS%	OReb%	DReb%	Ast%	Stl%	Blk%	Tov%	Tov%#	Blk%#	Ast%#	PP48
12-13 LeBron James	74.6	29.5	77.5	78.1	3.5	21.4	13.1	2.2	1.4	14.2	11.8	1.6	20.5	47.3
94-95 John Stockton	74.3	18.7	74.8	76.9	2.2	7.3	21.6	3.3	0.7	21.7	14.2	0.8	26.7	26.9
85-86 Magic Johnson	66.7	21.7	65.0	68.5	3.5	12.4	19.0	1.9	0.4	22.1	15.7	0.5	24.2	27.6
87-88 John Stockton	73.6	16.0	72.9	75.2	1.4	5.8	24.4	3.4	0.4	18.5	10.9	0.5	29.8	23.5
14-15 Kevin Durant	23.7	30.7	68.4	71.3	1.5	20.4	8.8	1.3	1.1	13.3	11.7	1.4	12.9	45.3
14-15 Joakim Noah	53.1	14.8	51.7	53.3	11.8	22.3	11.8	1.6	2.0	16.7	12.2	2.5	13.4	15.7
2016 Ronald Anderson (R)	23.2	19.5	59.6	60.1	12.0	19.2	2.8	0.9	3.8	9.0	8.4	4.7	3.5	25.5
74-75 Tom Boerwinkle	30.3	15.0	62.3	65.4	8.0	25.3	15.5	0.7	2.2	23.0	15.6	2.6	17.9	18.0
2016 Anthony Zombory (R)	22.0	22.1	47.6	51.5	5.0	5.9	5.8	1.6	0.0	11.1	9.9	0.0	7.1	24.2
2016 Frankie Bailey (R)	18.2	12.9	43.2	47.6	6.6	18.6	3.0	1.1	0.4	13.4	12.1	0.5	3.3	12.7
04-05 Raul Lopez	13.2	17.6	51.7	54.5	1.3	6.9	17.4	2.4	0.2	28.0	19.3	0.2	19.5	16.5
13-14 Steve Nash	8.0	18.8	37.7	44.1	2.1	4.4	19.2	1.0	0.2	23.6	16.0	0.2	21.2	15.1
90-91 Corey Gaines	5.9	16.6	40.0	44.4	1.8	5.0	19.2	1.5	0.6	22.0	14.3	0.8	21.3	13.7
93-94 Elliot Perry	6.7	17.9	31.4	36.4	4.6	4.6	20.9	3.6	0.0	33.8	21.9	0.0	22.6	10.3
88-89 Sidney Lowe	6.5	6.2	20.0	26.3	3.7	15.8	22.8	3.9	0.6	27.8	10.3	0.7	23.2	2.8
TEAM		100.0	66.1	68.3	22.8	70.3	79.9	10.9	5.2	17.9	13.0	6.3	79.9	26.8

78-4, 37w streak, lost to a team that would end up 17-65 or would have been a 45w streak & 79-3.

they didn't flop. Here's the playoff stats:

Name	GP	GS	Min	Pts	FG%	3Pt%	FT%	OReb	Reb	Ast	TO	Stl	Blk	PF
12-13 LeBron James	17	17	38.8	41.0	75.2	61.3	77.4	0.6	9.1	5.5	3.8	2.4	0.7	1.4
94-95 John Stockton	17	17	38.6	20.8	65.7	61.3	76.5	0.4	3.7	10.2	4.3	3.1	0.4	3.2
85-86 Magic Johnson	17	17	34.5	19.4	65.1	37.5	86.4	0.6	4.6	7.1	2.8	1.6	0.4	1.5
87-88 John Stockton	17	17	36.4	16.8	73.7	54.5	89.2	0.6	3.1	10.8	3.6	3.2	0.3	3.2
14-15 Kevin Durant	17	0	12.4	11.3	58.8	43.9	89.5	0.0	2.6	1.3	1.2	0.5	0.2	0.4
14-15 Joakim Noah	17	0	27.3	8.6	52.0	0	54.5	2.1	7.9	3.4	1.8	0.8	0.9	2.3
74-75 Tom Boerwinkle	17	17	16.1	5.6	64.1	33.3	73.3	0.8	4.2	3.1	2.0	0.2	0.5	2.6
2016 Ronald Anderson (R)	17	0	9.8	5.0	67.3	50.0	61.5	1.1	2.7	0.5	0.6	0.2	0.9	0.6
2016 Anthony Zombory (R)	17	0	6.7	4.5	48.3	10.0	89.5	0.2	0.6	0.5	0.4	0.1	0.0	0.8
04-05 Raul Lopez	16	0	6.9	2.8	34.1	26.7	100.0	0.1	0.6	1.6	1.0	0.4	0.0	0.7
13-14 Steve Nash	8	0	6.9	2.4	35.3	20.0	100.0	0.1	1.0	1.3	0.6	0.3	0.0	0.3
90-91 Corey Gaines	8	0	7.8	2.3	33.3	20.0	100.0	0.1	1.0	1.6	0.6	0.1	0.1	1.3
93-94 Elliot Perry	3	0	5.7	2.0	40.0	0	100.0	0.0	0.0	1.0	1.0	0.3	0.0	0.0
2016 Frankie Bailey (R)	8	0	6.8	2.0	58.3	50.0	0	0.3	1.8	0.5	0.3	0.0	0.3	1.6
88-89 Sidney Lowe	8	0	6.8	0.8	25.0	0	100.0	0.1	1.1	1.3	0.1	0.5	0.3	0.5
TOTALS	17			139.4	64.7	49.2	80.0	6.8	41.4	46.3	22.5	12.9	4.5	18.5
OPPONENTS	17			129.1	51.2	39.8	78.1	15.6	42.4	36.5	20.7	12.7	3.2	18.2

Name	Min%	Usage%	eFG%	TS%	OReb%	DReb%	Ast%	Stl%	Blk%	Tov%	Tov%#	Blk%#	Ast%#	PP48
12-13 LeBron James	80.4	30.1	80.0	80.7	2.4	21.0	12.1	2.60	0.89	13.1	11.0	1.19	19.5	50.7
94-95 John Stockton	80.1	18.6	74.8	75.9	1.5	8.2	22.3	3.39	0.45	23.9	15.3	0.60	27.1	25.8
85-86 Magic Johnson	71.6	19.3	66.5	70.0	2.4	11.1	17.5	2.04	0.50	17.0	11.9	0.67	21.7	26.9
87-88 John Stockton	75.5	15.8	75.4	77.7	2.3	6.5	25.2	3.74	0.39	25.3	14.4	0.53	30.3	22.1
14-15 Kevin Durant	25.6	29.8	66.4	70.7	0.0	20.6	8.9	1.63	0.93	13.4	11.8	1.25	12.4	43.9
14-15 Joakim Noah	56.6	14.4	52.0	53.1	11.1	20.5	10.6	1.29	1.58	17.9	13.3	2.12	12.0	15.1
74-75 Tom Boerwinkle	33.3	15.3	66.4	68.0	7.4	20.1	16.5	0.63	1.43	32.5	21.6	1.92	18.9	16.9
2016 Ronald Anderson (R)	20.2	17.2	70.4	70.3	15.6	16.2	4.6	1.03	4.42	15.4	13.7	5.92	5.5	24.6
2016 Anthony Zombory (R)	13.9	26.4	49.2	55.6	5.0	5.1	5.9	0.38	0.00	9.3	8.4	0.00	7.6	32.0
04-05 Raul Lopez	13.4	22.8	39.0	48.2	1.3	7.0	19.3	2.34	0.00	25.5	18.2	0.00	21.6	19.6
13-14 Steve Nash	6.7	17.9	38.2	48.4	2.6	12.2	15.4	1.56	0.00	20.3	14.4	0.00	17.0	16.6
90-91 Corey Gaines	7.6	16.3	36.1	44.6	2.3	10.9	17.8	0.69	0.79	19.8	13.1	1.06	19.4	13.9
2016 Frankie Bailey (R)	6.6	10.4	66.7	66.7	5.3	21.4	6.3	0.00	1.81	14.3	11.1	2.42	7.1	14.2
93-94 Elliot Perry	2.1	20.9	40.0	51.0	0.0	0.0	15.0	2.52	0.00	33.8	25.3	0.00	16.6	16.9
88-89 Sidney Lowe	6.6	7.3	25.0	33.8	2.7	14.2	15.7	3.18	1.81	10.1	5.0	2.42	16.2	5.3
TEAM		100.0	68.7	71.0	20.3	68.8	81.3	11.44	4.53	18.7	13.5	6.07	81.3	27.7

Lebron with 50.7 pp48 & 80% efg%.

In the finals vs Ben, we topped 300 points 4 of the 5 games for an average of 303ppg. I averaged 157.8ppg during it.

I normally don't rerun squads without any tinkering, but I think this team deserves another shot.

Run it back!

"Is it worth it? I mean you've won...you want to wipe everybody out?"--Tom Hagen to Michael Corleone in The Godfather, Pt. 2

That team has won 73, 71 & 78 games now, 3/3 'ships. I changed one version of Stockton & changed the webber/kukoc rotation backup to Durant, otherwise mostly the same... Attempt #4 to start soon.