Posted by DougOut on 1/22/2016 7:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 1/22/2016 6:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/22/2016 9:30:00 AM (view original):
To be clear, I'm pro-choice and for the death penalty.   I don't discriminate on who dies.

That's odd...

Since DNA evidence started to play a prominent role in the legal process, dozens of people have been pulled off death row after having been found not guilty (obviously not all on the strength of DNA evidence, but many).  Given the small proportion of cases that are re-opened or for which DNA evidence had actually been preserved, it seems fairly likely that at least dozens more have been executed or remain on death row who are also not guilty.  That's extremely conservative.  And in the history of our nations, we've surely executed at least hundreds, if not thousands, of American citizens for crimes they didn't commit.

I could have sworn that a week or so ago you asked if I'd restrict immigration to save one American life.  It was certainly implied that you would.  If you're so worried about pursuing policy that dumps resources into preserving every single innocent American life, I'd think you would be opposed to the death penalty.  My guess would be that more innocent American lives have been lost to capital punishment in the past decade than domestic terrorism.

  Nice try.  Totally forgettable.  Pretzel logic.  

 

I don't think you know what that means...

Posted by tecwrg on 1/22/2016 7:16:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 1/22/2016 7:01:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 1/22/2016 6:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/22/2016 9:30:00 AM (view original):
To be clear, I'm pro-choice and for the death penalty.   I don't discriminate on who dies.

That's odd...

Since DNA evidence started to play a prominent role in the legal process, dozens of people have been pulled off death row after having been found not guilty (obviously not all on the strength of DNA evidence, but many).  Given the small proportion of cases that are re-opened or for which DNA evidence had actually been preserved, it seems fairly likely that at least dozens more have been executed or remain on death row who are also not guilty.  That's extremely conservative.  And in the history of our nations, we've surely executed at least hundreds, if not thousands, of American citizens for crimes they didn't commit.

I could have sworn that a week or so ago you asked if I'd restrict immigration to save one American life.  It was certainly implied that you would.  If you're so worried about pursuing policy that dumps resources into preserving every single innocent American life, I'd think you would be opposed to the death penalty.  My guess would be that more innocent American lives have been lost to capital punishment in the past decade than domestic terrorism.

This. The justice system is flawed. It makes no sense to kill people when there is a very real likelihood that innocent people have and will be convicted.

"Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" - Voltaire

In what way is government-sanctioned murder good?

Wanna answer this one or just ignore it again because the true answer doesn't work with your statements on the matter?

I'll ask again, if building a giant wall and restricting immigration would save your fiancee's life, would you be for it?

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/22/2016 6:46:00 PM (view original):
Well, you never answered that question so I assumed you weren't interested.

I'll ask again, if building a giant wall and restricting immigration would save your fiancee's life, would you be for it?


Now I'll respond to you long-winded book.   Once a choir boy ends up on death row, maybe I'll change my mind.   But the people on death row aren't good people.  Maybe they didn't commit the crime they were convicted of but they did something to become a suspect. 

First of all: one of the guys pulled off death row about 11-12 years ago was a friend of a family from my church at the time.  He had never served jail time prior to his murder conviction.  In fact, he'd never been indicted or arraigned for anything.  His first non-traffic legal problem in his life was for murder 1.  He was convicted and sentenced to death.  And he didn't do it.  I think your assertion that "the people on death row aren't good people" is naive and somewhat ignorant.  In his case, the things he did to become a suspect were A) be friends with someone who was murdered and B) have bad teeth.

Second - This is another nonsensical question.  Nobody knows who's going to be a target of a random terror attack.  I don't have an answer to your ridiculous question, because I'd never have the power to make that decision, and I don't really think I can think about it in a rational way.  I do know that in the real world she's a lot more likely to be murdered in a non-terror-related mass killing by a US citizen than killed by a non-citizen terrorist.  It seems to me that a lot of people are focusing on the wrong problems.  It's amazing to me how powerful a political tool the rhetoric of hate remains in today's society...

OK, thank you badluck.  You won't answer because it's personalized and you'd build 10 walls for what you expect to be a lifetime of happiness.   You sorry piece of ****.

And, for the record, I don't believe your "first of all".    Poor little church goer with bad teeth was railroaded by the big, mean government while reading his bible.  Bullfuckingshit.    Thanks for playing.

Posted by dahsdebater on 1/22/2016 7:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by DougOut on 1/22/2016 7:05:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 1/22/2016 6:39:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/22/2016 9:30:00 AM (view original):
To be clear, I'm pro-choice and for the death penalty.   I don't discriminate on who dies.

That's odd...

Since DNA evidence started to play a prominent role in the legal process, dozens of people have been pulled off death row after having been found not guilty (obviously not all on the strength of DNA evidence, but many).  Given the small proportion of cases that are re-opened or for which DNA evidence had actually been preserved, it seems fairly likely that at least dozens more have been executed or remain on death row who are also not guilty.  That's extremely conservative.  And in the history of our nations, we've surely executed at least hundreds, if not thousands, of American citizens for crimes they didn't commit.

I could have sworn that a week or so ago you asked if I'd restrict immigration to save one American life.  It was certainly implied that you would.  If you're so worried about pursuing policy that dumps resources into preserving every single innocent American life, I'd think you would be opposed to the death penalty.  My guess would be that more innocent American lives have been lost to capital punishment in the past decade than domestic terrorism.

  Nice try.  Totally forgettable.  Pretzel logic.  

 

I don't think you know what that means...

  I'm very aware of the pretzel logic you use to front DNA defense and back spin to death penalty because you got it wrong once.

  It goes back to the old liberal argument of ONE LIFE.  It's all about one life. 

  Throwout the baby with the bathwater….for ONE LIFE.

  If you make ONE MISTAKE then the whole system must be torn down. 

  And if the new system allows for criminal activity, it's OK.  

  It's not OK to make one mistake under a system of law but it's OK to murder a cop because it's payback and we heard about it but we're too busy ******** about something else to care because we really don't care in the first place and we would rather see a cop dead than a criminal eliminated.

Posted by dahsdebater on 1/22/2016 7:46:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/22/2016 6:46:00 PM (view original):
Well, you never answered that question so I assumed you weren't interested.

I'll ask again, if building a giant wall and restricting immigration would save your fiancee's life, would you be for it?


Now I'll respond to you long-winded book.   Once a choir boy ends up on death row, maybe I'll change my mind.   But the people on death row aren't good people.  Maybe they didn't commit the crime they were convicted of but they did something to become a suspect. 

First of all: one of the guys pulled off death row about 11-12 years ago was a friend of a family from my church at the time.  He had never served jail time prior to his murder conviction.  In fact, he'd never been indicted or arraigned for anything.  His first non-traffic legal problem in his life was for murder 1.  He was convicted and sentenced to death.  And he didn't do it.  I think your assertion that "the people on death row aren't good people" is naive and somewhat ignorant.  In his case, the things he did to become a suspect were A) be friends with someone who was murdered and B) have bad teeth.

Second - This is another nonsensical question.  Nobody knows who's going to be a target of a random terror attack.  I don't have an answer to your ridiculous question, because I'd never have the power to make that decision, and I don't really think I can think about it in a rational way.  I do know that in the real world she's a lot more likely to be murdered in a non-terror-related mass killing by a US citizen than killed by a non-citizen terrorist.  It seems to me that a lot of people are focusing on the wrong problems.  It's amazing to me how powerful a political tool the rhetoric of hate remains in today's society...

  This is just terrible.  Please post all the stuff.  Thank you.

Posted by MikeT23 on 1/22/2016 7:53:00 PM (view original):
OK, thank you badluck.  You won't answer because it's personalized and you'd build 10 walls for what you expect to be a lifetime of happiness.   You sorry piece of ****.

And, for the record, I don't believe your "first of all".    Poor little church goer with bad teeth was railroaded by the big, mean government while reading his bible.  Bullfuckingshit.    Thanks for playing.

I'd like to say I wouldn't do it, because it wouldn't be right, but in reality I'd certainly want to.  I won't answer because it's a stupid question.  We never have foreknowledge of something like that.  Everybody's playing the odds.

I can't find the story I referenced at the moment.  But I'll post some more so you can tell me how bad these guys are.

Ernest Ray Willis Texas Conviction: 1987, Charges Dismissed: 2004
Ernest Ray Willis was sentenced to death for the 1986 deaths of two women who died in a house fire that was ruled an arson. Seventeen years later, Pecos County District Attorney Ori T. White revisited the case after a federal judge overturned Willis' conviction. (Willis v. Cockrell, 2004 WL 1812698 (W.D.Tex.)) White hired an arson specialist to review the original evidence, and the specialist concluded that there was no evidence of arson. Willis, who was staying briefly at the house where the fire occurred, escaped from the house. Investigators believed they found an "accellerant" in the carpet. Officers at the scene of the blaze said that Willis had acted strangely, and prosecutors had Willis arrested. Despite limited evidence, Willis was indicted for murder and arson. Prosecutors used Willis' dazed mental state at trial - the result of state-administered medication - to characterize Willis as "coldhearted" and as a "satanic demon." Willis' court-appointed lawyers, one of whom later surrendered his law license following drug charges, offered little defense. The attorneys spent a total of three hours with Willis, and as a result, Willis was found guilty and sentenced to death.The state's new arson specialist revealed, however, that the "accellerant" initially suspected of causing the fire was in fact "flashover burning," consistent with electrical fault fires. U. S. District Judge Royal Ferguson held that the state had administered medically inappropriate antipsychotic drugs without Willis' consent; that the state supressed evidence favorable to Willis; and that Willis received ineffective representation at both the guilt and sentencing phases of his trial. He ordered the state to either free Willis or retry him. The state attorney general's office declined to appeal, and prosecutors dropped all charges against Willis. White, whose predecessors prosecuted Willis, said that Willis "simply did not do the crime. ... I'm sorry this man was on death row for so long and that there were so many lost years." (Los Angeles Times, October 7, 2004). Willis, who had no prior record, was released on October 6, 2004 with $100, ten days of medication, and the clothes on his back. (Los Angeles Times, Houston Chronicle, and Dallas Morning News, October 7, 2004).

Did he do it?

It's stupid because it's personalized and your "ideas" don't work when it's personalized.    I'm willing to admit such things, you are not.   If my innocent brother was on death row, I'd be against the death penalty.   But he isn't, I've never known anyone on death row so it's not personal.   I can look at it from 10,000 feet and be positive I'm right.

As for the one off cases you're going to show me, don't bother.    To make an omelet, you gotta break some eggs.    The occasional innocent person gets executed.  Sorry, I don't have enough tears for everyone.

I did find it, though:

Ray Krone Arizona Conviction: 1992, Charges Dismissed: 2002
On April 8, 2002, Ray Krone was released from prison in Arizona after DNA testing showed that he did not commit the murder for which he was convicted 10 years earlier. Maricopa County Attorney Rick Romley and Phoenix Police Chief Harold Hurtt announced at a news conference on April 8, 2002 that new DNA tests vindicated Krone and that they would seek his release pending a hearing next month to vacate the murder conviction. Romley stated, "[Krone] deserves an apology from us, that's for sure. A mistake was made here. . . . What do you say to him? An injustice was done and we will try to do better. And we're sorry." Krone was first convicted in 1992, based largely on circumstantial evidence and testimony that bite marks on the victim matched Krone's teeth. He was sentenced to death. Three years later he received a new trial (State v. Krone, 897 P.2d 621 (Ariz. 1995) (en banc)), but was again found guilty and sentenced to life in prison in 1996. Krone's post-conviction defense attorney, Alan Simpson, obtained a court order for DNA tests. The results not only exculpated Krone, but they pointed to another man, Kenneth Phillips, as the assailant. Prosecutor William Culbertson told Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Alfred Fenzel that the chances are 1.3 quadrillion to one that DNA found in saliva on the victim's tank top came from Phillips. (The Arizona Republic, 4/9/02).

Not mentioned here, but the city of Phoenix and state of Arizona actually wound up paying something like $3 million for framing the guy.

What eVar happened to Ernest Ray Willis?

This is kind of like Court TV and das is Judge Judy!  I'm excited.  

Posted by DougOut on 1/22/2016 9:07:00 PM (view original):
What eVar happened to Ernest Ray Willis?

Beats me.  That was just one I ran into looking for Ray Krone.