no

i can hardly wait to see what BL says

Posted by tecwrg on 5/15/2015 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/15/2015 1:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mchales_army on 5/15/2015 1:25:00 PM (view original):
It is about artistic expression.

Let me try this way:

If you run a lumber yard, you can't not sell lumber to gays because they are going to use that lumber to construct a wedding alter for their wedding.
You have no control over that. 

However you should certainly be allowed to refuse to be the guy who builds that alter for them.

There IS a difference.

It's not about artistic expression. By choosing to go into business, you give up certain rights. You lose the right to refuse black people, for instance, regardless of what your religious beliefs are. In some (eventually all) states, the same rule applies to gay customers.

So you're implying that if you do not go into business, you have the right to refuse blacks or gays.

Is that the case?

Let's say I remodel my kitchen and get a new refrigerator.  I decide to sell my old refrigerator through a local swap shop website.  Some dude named Bob calls me and says he and his fiance might be interested, can they stop by and see it tomorrow.  Tomorrow comes, and it turns out that Bob's fiance is another dude named Dave.  Can I refuse to sell him the fridge because I don't approve of gay marriage?

I think you can.   It's personal property.  

Posted by mchales_army on 5/15/2015 6:27:00 PM (view original):
If it were about "making things tougher on the other side" then they would refuse service altogether which IS NOT what is happening.

There is no hatefulness involved, at least in the Stutzman case. She was very genuine in that it was something she could not in good conscience do.

That isn't good enough. They want you to celebrate their lifestyle regardless of your convictions. Anything less amounts to hatred in their mind.

No, they wanted to buy a ******* wedding cake.    They did not ask you to attend their wedding and dance.

Posted by tecwrg on 5/15/2015 6:31:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/15/2015 1:34:00 PM (view original):

Posted by mchales_army on 5/15/2015 1:25:00 PM (view original):
It is about artistic expression.

Let me try this way:

If you run a lumber yard, you can't not sell lumber to gays because they are going to use that lumber to construct a wedding alter for their wedding.
You have no control over that. 

However you should certainly be allowed to refuse to be the guy who builds that alter for them.

There IS a difference.

It's not about artistic expression. By choosing to go into business, you give up certain rights. You lose the right to refuse black people, for instance, regardless of what your religious beliefs are. In some (eventually all) states, the same rule applies to gay customers.

So you're implying that if you do not go into business, you have the right to refuse blacks or gays.

Is that the case?

Let's say I remodel my kitchen and get a new refrigerator.  I decide to sell my old refrigerator through a local swap shop website.  Some dude named Bob calls me and says he and his fiance might be interested, can they stop by and see it tomorrow.  Tomorrow comes, and it turns out that Bob's fiance is another dude named Dave.  Can I refuse to sell him the fridge because I don't approve of gay marriage?

Yes

You can also not sell it to him because he's black and you're racist. Or because he's Jewish. Or because he's breastfeeding.

Your junk on craigslist isn't a "public accommodation."

i can hardly wait to see what BL says

that makes sense

random thought... so where does one presidency end and the other one start? reading an article on the huff post praising a college student for telling Jeb that his brother George created ISIS got me thinking. So ISIS, which didn't exist until 2013 (really more like 2014 when Obama called them the JV Team) and was a good 5 years into Obama's presidency is all Bush's fault... yet the turnaround of the economy which is also a good 5-6 years into Obama's presidency is all because of Obama? go figure.

Posted by moy23 on 5/13/2015 6:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by seamar_116 on 5/13/2015 6:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 5/13/2015 11:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/13/2015 11:19:00 AM (view original):
Did Hitler/WW2 happen? Of course.

Did U.S. isolationism cause it? Doubtful.

Will the U.S. avoiding war in the mid-east cause another Hitler/WW2 scenario? No.

Interesting that the USA pulls out of Iraq and now Christians are getting eradicated in mass numbers.... Children are being kidnapped in large numbers to be sold, converted, or killed. Families are getting broken up by force. The movement has spread to Syria, Libya, Yeman, and is beginning to get a foothold in Pakistan, Jordan, and Egypt. Boko Haran and other terrorist organizations are rolling up to IS now as they become more organized.

To the contrary - the US is in Afghanistan and we do not hear any of the same sort of stories out of that country. Do you think if we pull out of Afghanistan that it would not turn into another Iraq where religious minorities are getting slaughtered in mass quantities?



I guess a good question for you is - "What do you think will happen in the middle east if America does nothing? What will the landscape look like in 5 years, 10 years? How great do you think ISIS reach will be?"

Or, we could have left Saddam in power and saved hundreds of thousands of lives and this probably wouldn't have happened either.

FYI - Saddam killed more than a million civilians during his reign, even used chemical weapons on some. He also was looking to build a nuke while his sons were off raping women. Not really a guy I'd be propping up.

The US has propped up scores of undesirable leaders for decades, because they served our "national" interest. The US has no credibility playing the ethics and morality card.

Posted by seamar_116 on 5/15/2015 10:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 5/13/2015 6:52:00 PM (view original):

Posted by seamar_116 on 5/13/2015 6:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 5/13/2015 11:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/13/2015 11:19:00 AM (view original):
Did Hitler/WW2 happen? Of course.

Did U.S. isolationism cause it? Doubtful.

Will the U.S. avoiding war in the mid-east cause another Hitler/WW2 scenario? No.

Interesting that the USA pulls out of Iraq and now Christians are getting eradicated in mass numbers.... Children are being kidnapped in large numbers to be sold, converted, or killed. Families are getting broken up by force. The movement has spread to Syria, Libya, Yeman, and is beginning to get a foothold in Pakistan, Jordan, and Egypt. Boko Haran and other terrorist organizations are rolling up to IS now as they become more organized.

To the contrary - the US is in Afghanistan and we do not hear any of the same sort of stories out of that country. Do you think if we pull out of Afghanistan that it would not turn into another Iraq where religious minorities are getting slaughtered in mass quantities?



I guess a good question for you is - "What do you think will happen in the middle east if America does nothing? What will the landscape look like in 5 years, 10 years? How great do you think ISIS reach will be?"

Or, we could have left Saddam in power and saved hundreds of thousands of lives and this probably wouldn't have happened either.

FYI - Saddam killed more than a million civilians during his reign, even used chemical weapons on some. He also was looking to build a nuke while his sons were off raping women. Not really a guy I'd be propping up.

The US has propped up scores of undesirable leaders for decades, because they served our "national" interest. The US has no credibility playing the ethics and morality card.

My last response there had nothing to do with the US. I was referring to you playing the 'ethics and morality card' by propping up Saddam Hussein. The man had zero ethics and zero morality. The past is the past. You still did not answer what you think the middle east will look like in 5-10 years if we isolate ourselves from whats going on there or how big the reach of ISIS will be in 5+ years. Just today - ISIS took back the govt HQ in Ramadi. They are not the JV team despite what Obama claims.

DUBYA CREATED ISIS.  INVASION OF IRAQ== TERRIBLE, TERRIBLE BLUNDER. OBAMA AND NEXT FEW PRESIDENTS WILL HAVE TO DEAL WITH NEOCONS WET DREAM MISTAKES

Posted by moy23 on 5/15/2015 10:29:00 PM (view original):
random thought... so where does one presidency end and the other one start? reading an article on the huff post praising a college student for telling Jeb that his brother George created ISIS got me thinking. So ISIS, which didn't exist until 2013 (really more like 2014 when Obama called them the JV Team) and was a good 5 years into Obama's presidency is all Bush's fault... yet the turnaround of the economy which is also a good 5-6 years into Obama's presidency is all because of Obama? go figure.

All bad comes from the previous Administration, all good is due to current Administration. 

I imagine it's always been that way, will always be that way.

Brush won't clear itself, fucknob!!!

Posted by moy23 on 5/15/2015 10:29:00 PM (view original):
random thought... so where does one presidency end and the other one start? reading an article on the huff post praising a college student for telling Jeb that his brother George created ISIS got me thinking. So ISIS, which didn't exist until 2013 (really more like 2014 when Obama called them the JV Team) and was a good 5 years into Obama's presidency is all Bush's fault... yet the turnaround of the economy which is also a good 5-6 years into Obama's presidency is all because of Obama? go figure.

Do you not understand cause and effect?

I think it's difficult to pin down who "caused" ISIS. A reasonable person could say that, had we not invaded Iraq, there would be no ISIS.

The economy is a little more clear cut. If you want to assign blame/credit to the president (probably a dumb idea, but ok), then Bush gets the blame for the cratered economy in 2008 and Obama gets the credit for the turn around.

I can hardly wait to see what BL says

that makes sense

what turn around?

Posted by bad_luck on 5/16/2015 12:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 5/15/2015 10:29:00 PM (view original):
random thought... so where does one presidency end and the other one start? reading an article on the huff post praising a college student for telling Jeb that his brother George created ISIS got me thinking. So ISIS, which didn't exist until 2013 (really more like 2014 when Obama called them the JV Team) and was a good 5 years into Obama's presidency is all Bush's fault... yet the turnaround of the economy which is also a good 5-6 years into Obama's presidency is all because of Obama? go figure.

Do you not understand cause and effect?

I think it's difficult to pin down who "caused" ISIS. A reasonable person could say that, had we not invaded Iraq, there would be no ISIS.

The economy is a little more clear cut. If you want to assign blame/credit to the president (probably a dumb idea, but ok), then Bush gets the blame for the cratered economy in 2008 and Obama gets the credit for the turn around.

Under Saddam 50,000 Iraqi civilians died violently each year. With US troops in Iraq under Bush and Obama the avg was approximately 7,000 Iraqi civilian deaths per year and declining after 'the surge'. You speak of cause and effect - "17,049 civilians have been recorded killed in Iraq during 2014. This is roughly double the number recorded in 2013 (9,743), which in turn was roughly double the number in 2012 (4,622)." In 2012 we had troops in Iraq - Also ISIS did not exist in any relevant form in 2012. Who caused ISIS? Any REASONABLE person could also say that Bush had things under control until Obama ****** it up by withdrawing our troops.