Obama: Worst President Ever? Topic

MikeT23
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Posted by mchales_army on 5/15/2015 3:20:00 PM (view original):
In all 5 examples, you are simply selling a GOOD. It is impersonal and shouldn't have any effect on your belief system.

When you are a baker/Florist/Photographer, you are selling an artistic expression that comes from within. That is much more personal and is different than simply selling a good, whether it be a condom, fork, sewing machine, sheets, or a candy bar.

It is not the same.

So you're the arbiter of what should/shouldn't have an effect on EVERYONE'S belief system?


Accept the fact that you had to go full-on badluck when you took this indefensible position.   That has forced you to double-down and dig a deeper hole.   Now there is no way out so you just have to make one silly statement after another to maintain your thought.

5/15/2015 4:25 PM (edited)
mchales_army
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BS

It is perfectly acceptable the other way.

When Arizona was considering their ridiculous bill, there was a pizza shop who posted a sign that read :"We reserve the right to refuse service to Arizona legislators".

HAHA. Those in favor of gay marriage were very supportive of that move.

In NM, the Governor's hair stylist said she wouldn't do the governor's hair until she changed her views on Gay marriage. Again overwhelming support for this move by the gays.

How are either different?
5/15/2015 4:25 PM
MikeT23
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Why wouldn't gays be very supportive of any action that furthers their cause?

5/15/2015 4:27 PM
mchales_army
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Posted by MikeT23 on 5/15/2015 4:25:00 PM (view original):
Posted by mchales_army on 5/15/2015 3:20:00 PM (view original):
In all 5 examples, you are simply selling a GOOD. It is impersonal and shouldn't have any effect on your belief system.

When you are a baker/Florist/Photographer, you are selling an artistic expression that comes from within. That is much more personal and is different than simply selling a good, whether it be a condom, fork, sewing machine, sheets, or a candy bar.

It is not the same.

So you're the arbiter of what should/shouldn't have an effect on EVERYONE'S belief system?


Accept the fact that you had to go full-on badluck when you took this indefensible position.   That has forced you to double-down and dig a deeper hole.   Now there is no way out so you just have to make one silly statement after another to maintain your thought.

It is 100% defensible.

The two are not the same.

Selling a good MIGHT cause you an issue. Maybe you need to reconsider what you are selling. I could rake if I opened a "title loan" office, but morally I cannot prey on the down and out.

Making something with your two hands and selling a good you had shipped in from wherever are two different things. To pretend they aren't is missing an important aspect of the argument.



5/15/2015 4:29 PM
mchales_army
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Posted by MikeT23 on 5/15/2015 4:27:00 PM (view original):

Why wouldn't gays be very supportive of any action that furthers their cause?

Of course they would be. It is just ironic that the very same actions are OK in one instance but not the other.

It's OK to refuse to serve the legislators whose beliefs you disagree with, but not OK to refuse to make a wedding cake for something you disagree with.
One is championed the other is persecuted?

5/15/2015 4:32 PM
MikeT23
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No, unless you're prepared to tell EVERYONE what affects THEM and THEIR belief system, they are not the same. 

You alone have decided that selling a good is not the same as selling a service.   To me, selling anything to someone you feel is morally depraved/bankrupt is exactly the same.   You are contributing to a better life, no matter how meager, by providing them with a good they desire.    If you're so morally outraged by their behavior, you can't do that with good conscience.
5/15/2015 4:34 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by mchales_army on 5/15/2015 4:25:00 PM (view original):
BS

It is perfectly acceptable the other way.

When Arizona was considering their ridiculous bill, there was a pizza shop who posted a sign that read :"We reserve the right to refuse service to Arizona legislators".

HAHA. Those in favor of gay marriage were very supportive of that move.

In NM, the Governor's hair stylist said she wouldn't do the governor's hair until she changed her views on Gay marriage. Again overwhelming support for this move by the gays.

How are either different?
There's a difference between refusing to serve an individual and refusing to serve an entire class of people.

Jim may be a former client who you refuse to serve because he never paid your invoices on time. That's legal even if Jim is black.

But you can't refuse to serve all black people going forward. That's illegal regardless of your religious beliefs.
5/15/2015 4:44 PM
mchales_army
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There is no artistic expression that is involved in un-boxing a crate of dish soap shipped in from Malaysia and putting the soap on the shelf. Period.

5/15/2015 4:45 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by mchales_army on 5/15/2015 4:45:00 PM (view original):
There is no artistic expression that is involved in un-boxing a crate of dish soap shipped in from Malaysia and putting the soap on the shelf. Period.

So you are prepared to tell EVERYONE what affects THEM and THEIR belief system.   OK, that pretty much closes down this discussion.   And confirms that you are as bad as badluck on certain issues.
5/15/2015 4:53 PM
mchales_army
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That's fine.
I didn't expect a lot of support on this, but wanted to gauge the reaction of others, because that is definitely what we will be looking at in the very near future.

I am a bit surprised that no one can really see the difference in the original question I posed.

The gay community wants everyone to accept their position but will not accept the religious convictions of others.

It should be a two way street.

Most would simply go to another shop. Trying to put someone out of business over it is far more "harmful" than the supposed discrimination.

5/15/2015 5:42 PM
bronxcheer
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WALK A MILE IN THEIR SHOES.

LET HE WHO IS WITHOUT SIN THROW THE FIRST STONE.

TURN THE OTHER CHEEK.
5/15/2015 5:54 PM
DougOut
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I want to thank each and everyone of you for your participation.  Now pay attention.

I am a very rich man.  I own a business that makes tons of money and right now I need skilled workers to fill scores of positions for my expansion.  I have so much money I decided years ago to go into real estate.  My daughter just graduated college with majors in business and chemistry and has a flair for cooking. She has an Idea for a product and franchise.  It's brilliant and we agree I buy her a small bakery which she will use for a couple of years until she works out her ideas and gets the feel for managing a business. We are very religious people.  I am also the preacher at my Church.

Two days later a gay couple walk into my business.  They are highly qualified and I hire them immediately.  Now that they have a job, they go to my real estate business to buy a home.  They have a job and plenty to cover a down payment plusewise a fantastic credit score.  I sell them a home immediately.  Now they decide to get married.  They walk into my daughters bakery and order a wedding cake. We gladly comply.  

Later that day I am contacted by the couple to see if I will preform the wedding service and if my daughter will cater the event.  We decline.

Thank you for playing.
5/15/2015 6:10 PM
MikeT23
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There is no room for compromise between the religious right and the gay community.

"No, it's a sin to stuff your dick in another's dude's butt."
"No, it's perfectly normal behavior."

See?  There is no middle ground.    So, naturally, the "offended" side is going to go out of their way to make things tougher on the other side.

"No, I will not make a cake for your **** wedding, buttfucker."
"OK, I will see you in court, you ******* nutjob."

Then the court decides if it's discrimination.
5/15/2015 6:16 PM
mchales_army
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If it were about "making things tougher on the other side" then they would refuse service altogether which IS NOT what is happening.

There is no hatefulness involved, at least in the Stutzman case. She was very genuine in that it was something she could not in good conscience do.

That isn't good enough. They want you to celebrate their lifestyle regardless of your convictions. Anything less amounts to hatred in their mind.
5/15/2015 6:27 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 5/15/2015 1:34:00 PM (view original):
Posted by mchales_army on 5/15/2015 1:25:00 PM (view original):
It is about artistic expression.

Let me try this way:

If you run a lumber yard, you can't not sell lumber to gays because they are going to use that lumber to construct a wedding alter for their wedding.
You have no control over that. 

However you should certainly be allowed to refuse to be the guy who builds that alter for them.

There IS a difference.

It's not about artistic expression. By choosing to go into business, you give up certain rights. You lose the right to refuse black people, for instance, regardless of what your religious beliefs are. In some (eventually all) states, the same rule applies to gay customers.
So you're implying that if you do not go into business, you have the right to refuse blacks or gays.

Is that the case?

Let's say I remodel my kitchen and get a new refrigerator.  I decide to sell my old refrigerator through a local swap shop website.  Some dude named Bob calls me and says he and his fiance might be interested, can they stop by and see it tomorrow.  Tomorrow comes, and it turns out that Bob's fiance is another dude named Dave.  Can I refuse to sell him the fridge because I don't approve of gay marriage?
5/15/2015 6:31 PM
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