Ferguson Police should be outlawed Topic

burnsy483
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Posted by tecwrg on 12/5/2014 12:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/5/2014 11:37:00 AM (view original):
I'm just trying to understand why you're so fixated on the idea that there's no reasonable chance that a crime occurred, based on the information given to you.

I'm not arguing one way or the other about whether or not a crime occurred.  And I have not offered a single opinion in this thread as to whether one did or not.

I'm just questioning your line of argument which seems to imply that the ME's noted cause of death as "homicide" inherently implies that a criminal act took place.  That's not the ME's job.  His/her job is to only determine the cause of death.  The determination of "criminal act" is made by the police, the DA's office, and the legal system.  Real life isn't a Patricia Cornwall novel.

It seems to me that there is a generally accepted medical definition of "homicide", and a NYS legal statute definition of "homicide".  To me, they are not necessarily the same thing.  Seeing that the ME is not a part of the legal system, I'm not sure why you are assuming that he/she is bound to use the legal definition of homicide when filling out a death certificate.

I'm certainly assuming that it's insane to not indict someone based on the idea of "we use different definitions, obviously he didn't commit a homicide."
12/5/2014 12:49 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2014 12:42:00 PM (view original):
Garner had a criminal record that includes more than 30 arrests dating back to 1980 on charges such as assault, resisting arrest, grand larceny.

Wonder how many times he "showed no threat"?
Was he convicted of assault? 
12/5/2014 12:54 PM
MikeT23
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I think the decision to not indict was based on the fact that no crime was committed. 
12/5/2014 12:55 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 12/5/2014 12:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2014 12:42:00 PM (view original):
Garner had a criminal record that includes more than 30 arrests dating back to 1980 on charges such as assault, resisting arrest, grand larceny.

Wonder how many times he "showed no threat"?
Was he convicted of assault? 

No idea.   Do non-convictions stay on your record?

12/5/2014 12:55 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2014 12:55:00 PM (view original):
I think the decision to not indict was based on the fact that no crime was committed. 
I understand your opinion.
12/5/2014 12:56 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2014 12:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/5/2014 12:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2014 12:42:00 PM (view original):
Garner had a criminal record that includes more than 30 arrests dating back to 1980 on charges such as assault, resisting arrest, grand larceny.

Wonder how many times he "showed no threat"?
Was he convicted of assault? 

No idea.   Do non-convictions stay on your record?

I don't know. Do they?
12/5/2014 12:57 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 12/5/2014 12:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2014 12:55:00 PM (view original):
I think the decision to not indict was based on the fact that no crime was committed. 
I understand your opinion.
It's not just my opinion.   The people with the power to indict have the same one.
12/5/2014 12:57 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2014 12:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/5/2014 12:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2014 12:55:00 PM (view original):
I think the decision to not indict was based on the fact that no crime was committed. 
I understand your opinion.
It's not just my opinion.   The people with the power to indict have the same one.
Yea, I noticed. 
12/5/2014 12:57 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 12/5/2014 12:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2014 12:55:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/5/2014 12:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2014 12:42:00 PM (view original):
Garner had a criminal record that includes more than 30 arrests dating back to 1980 on charges such as assault, resisting arrest, grand larceny.

Wonder how many times he "showed no threat"?
Was he convicted of assault? 

No idea.   Do non-convictions stay on your record?

I don't know. Do they?
I don't know.  I wouldn't think so but maybe they do. 
12/5/2014 12:57 PM
burnsy483
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And? What's your point?
12/5/2014 12:58 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by burnsy483 on 12/5/2014 12:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 12/5/2014 12:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/5/2014 11:37:00 AM (view original):
I'm just trying to understand why you're so fixated on the idea that there's no reasonable chance that a crime occurred, based on the information given to you.

I'm not arguing one way or the other about whether or not a crime occurred.  And I have not offered a single opinion in this thread as to whether one did or not.

I'm just questioning your line of argument which seems to imply that the ME's noted cause of death as "homicide" inherently implies that a criminal act took place.  That's not the ME's job.  His/her job is to only determine the cause of death.  The determination of "criminal act" is made by the police, the DA's office, and the legal system.  Real life isn't a Patricia Cornwall novel.

It seems to me that there is a generally accepted medical definition of "homicide", and a NYS legal statute definition of "homicide".  To me, they are not necessarily the same thing.  Seeing that the ME is not a part of the legal system, I'm not sure why you are assuming that he/she is bound to use the legal definition of homicide when filling out a death certificate.

I'm certainly assuming that it's insane to not indict someone based on the idea of "we use different definitions, obviously he didn't commit a homicide."
A homicide was committed, according to the MEs report.  I assume he was using the definition of homicide as defined by the National Association of Medical Examiners since he himself was a Medical Examiner.  The legal system further determined that it was not a criminal homicide according to the statutes of New York State, hence no charges filed by the prosecutor and no indictment by the grand jury.

Does that clear things up?  Or do you want to continue your pissy squibbling over semantics?

12/5/2014 1:07 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 12/5/2014 12:58:00 PM (view original):
And? What's your point?
You asked if he was convicted of assault.   I'm assuming he was because it's on his record. 

That's my point, burnsyluck.
12/5/2014 1:09 PM
MikeT23
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At the end of the day, I see it as an officer doing his job, a suspect(with a record) resisting arrest and an unfortunate outcome.   Garner certainly did nothing that should have ended in his death(unlike Brown) but the cop shouldn't be looking at prison time either.   Suspend him, fire him, send him to sensitivity training, whatever.   But don't clog up the courts with something like that. 
12/5/2014 1:18 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2014 1:18:00 PM (view original):
At the end of the day, I see it as an officer doing his job, a suspect(with a record) resisting arrest and an unfortunate outcome.   Garner certainly did nothing that should have ended in his death(unlike Brown) but the cop shouldn't be looking at prison time either.   Suspend him, fire him, send him to sensitivity training, whatever.   But don't clog up the courts with something like that. 
But he wasn't just "doing his job." He exceed his authority by using a choke hold. That choke hold was the proximate cause of death. How you can think that absolutely no crime was committed is baffling.
12/5/2014 1:21 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2014 12:57:00 PM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/5/2014 12:56:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2014 12:55:00 PM (view original):
I think the decision to not indict was based on the fact that no crime was committed. 
I understand your opinion.
It's not just my opinion.   The people with the power to indict have the same one.
Which is why people are upset. The person with the actual power in this situation (the DA) decided he would rather maintain his relationship with the NYPD than bring charges against a cop.
12/5/2014 1:24 PM
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