Ferguson Police should be outlawed Topic

bad_luck
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Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2014 10:31:00 AM (view original):
Also, that wasn't vague. It's VERY hard to argue that he paid for those cigars.
You're right about the payment. I don't see it. I'm still curious what they were discussing, why Brown put back the packs that fell on the ground, etc.
12/4/2014 10:59 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2014 10:52:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2014 10:28:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2014 10:27:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2014 10:21:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/3/2014 3:40:00 PM (view original):
Now, I am somewhat surprised that Pantaleo isn't charged in the Garner death. 
This was both shocking and completely unsurprising. Fuckin cops.
The part that actually bothers me the most, that nobody is talking about, is the 7 minutes he was unresponsive on the ground before anyone decided that CPR was a good idea.
The ME called it a homocide. It's unexcusable. That cop should be in prison.

It seems like it's criminally negligent homicide. I'd love someone to explain how it clearly isn't.
Excessive force and criminal negligence(I guess that's what it's called for ignoring a distressed suspect).   You're not getting a homocide because you'd have to prove he intended to kill him.    Because homicide is described as a deliberate and unlawful killing.   If it was intentional, he'd have held the choke until he died in his arms.
12/4/2014 11:00 AM
burnsy483
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I looked up these yesterday.  Based on the definitions of these crimes, I don't understand how it at least doesn't go to trial.

S 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.   A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.  Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.   S 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.   A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:   1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or   2. He commits upon a female an abortional act which causes her death, unless such abortional act is justifiable pursuant to subdivision three of section 125.05 or   3. He intentionally causes or aids another person to commit suicide.  Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.
12/4/2014 11:07 AM
burnsy483
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Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2014 10:59:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2014 10:31:00 AM (view original):
Also, that wasn't vague. It's VERY hard to argue that he paid for those cigars.
You're right about the payment. I don't see it. I'm still curious what they were discussing, why Brown put back the packs that fell on the ground, etc.
I'm somewhat curious, but it's pretty obvious he stole them. I don't know why he didn't steal all of them. 
12/4/2014 11:15 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2014 11:08:00 AM (view original):
I looked up these yesterday.  Based on the definitions of these crimes, I don't understand how it at least doesn't go to trial.

S 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.   A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.  Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.   S 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.   A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:   1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or   2. He commits upon a female an abortional act which causes her death, unless such abortional act is justifiable pursuant to subdivision three of section 125.05 or   3. He intentionally causes or aids another person to commit suicide.  Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.
I agree. A negligent homicide charge would have been appropriate.

I don't know what the argument is for not sending it to trial, the entire thing is on video.
12/4/2014 11:35 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2014 11:08:00 AM (view original):
I looked up these yesterday.  Based on the definitions of these crimes, I don't understand how it at least doesn't go to trial.

S 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.   A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.  Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.   S 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.   A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:   1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or   2. He commits upon a female an abortional act which causes her death, unless such abortional act is justifiable pursuant to subdivision three of section 125.05 or   3. He intentionally causes or aids another person to commit suicide.  Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.
I'm guessing the laws work a little differently for cops.     He was detaining a suspect.   You or I would just be choking some random dude out.    I drive past a guy walking in the middle of the road and tell him to get his *** out of the road.   A struggle ensues.   I'm looked at as the aggressor.   Not so much with a cop.
12/4/2014 11:55 AM
MikeT23
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Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2014 11:15:00 AM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2014 10:59:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2014 10:31:00 AM (view original):
Also, that wasn't vague. It's VERY hard to argue that he paid for those cigars.
You're right about the payment. I don't see it. I'm still curious what they were discussing, why Brown put back the packs that fell on the ground, etc.
I'm somewhat curious, but it's pretty obvious he stole them. I don't know why he didn't steal all of them. 
I worked the third shift in a convenience store in a bad part of town.   I'd see someone stealing and say "Hey, put that back."   Sometimes they ran, sometimes they put it all back, sometimes they put some of it back.    I assume the logic was "Maybe he doesn't know how much I have." 
12/4/2014 11:58 AM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2014 11:55:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2014 11:08:00 AM (view original):
I looked up these yesterday.  Based on the definitions of these crimes, I don't understand how it at least doesn't go to trial.

S 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.   A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.  Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.   S 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.   A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:   1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or   2. He commits upon a female an abortional act which causes her death, unless such abortional act is justifiable pursuant to subdivision three of section 125.05 or   3. He intentionally causes or aids another person to commit suicide.  Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.
I'm guessing the laws work a little differently for cops.     He was detaining a suspect.   You or I would just be choking some random dude out.    I drive past a guy walking in the middle of the road and tell him to get his *** out of the road.   A struggle ensues.   I'm looked at as the aggressor.   Not so much with a cop.
Cops should be held to a higher standard in their use of force since they're the ones with the power and the weapons.
12/4/2014 12:08 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2014 11:55:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2014 11:08:00 AM (view original):
I looked up these yesterday.  Based on the definitions of these crimes, I don't understand how it at least doesn't go to trial.

S 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.   A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.  Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.   S 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.   A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:   1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or   2. He commits upon a female an abortional act which causes her death, unless such abortional act is justifiable pursuant to subdivision three of section 125.05 or   3. He intentionally causes or aids another person to commit suicide.  Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.
I'm guessing the laws work a little differently for cops.     He was detaining a suspect.   You or I would just be choking some random dude out.    I drive past a guy walking in the middle of the road and tell him to get his *** out of the road.   A struggle ensues.   I'm looked at as the aggressor.   Not so much with a cop.
Yes, laws are somewhat different when it comes to cops, because of the nature of their job.  If this was anyone else, they'd be going to trial for murder or 1st degree manslaughter, because you can't just put someone in a chokehold and bring them to the ground for no reason. Because it's a cop, criminally negligent homicide makes the most sense, in my opinion. Generally when someone tells you that they're having trouble with a normal life function, like breathing, that you shouldn't continue to do what you're doing. Or when it appears that they're dying after you didn't stop suffocating this person, to try to bring them back to life sooner than 7 minutes later. It sounds like there's a great chance he was negligent. Not going to trial seems insane.
12/4/2014 12:09 PM
burnsy483
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And for what it's worth, CNH is anywhere from probation to 4 years in prison. It's not like I want this guy to be sent to the chair. 

2nd degree manslaughter would be 3.5 to 15 years, FWIW.
12/4/2014 12:13 PM (edited)
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2014 12:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2014 11:55:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2014 11:08:00 AM (view original):
I looked up these yesterday.  Based on the definitions of these crimes, I don't understand how it at least doesn't go to trial.

S 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.   A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.  Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.   S 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.   A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:   1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or   2. He commits upon a female an abortional act which causes her death, unless such abortional act is justifiable pursuant to subdivision three of section 125.05 or   3. He intentionally causes or aids another person to commit suicide.  Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.
I'm guessing the laws work a little differently for cops.     He was detaining a suspect.   You or I would just be choking some random dude out.    I drive past a guy walking in the middle of the road and tell him to get his *** out of the road.   A struggle ensues.   I'm looked at as the aggressor.   Not so much with a cop.
Cops should be held to a higher standard in their use of force since they're the ones with the power and the weapons.

Cops are also the ones on the front lines dealing with the often violent scum of society.

Random citizen A putting random citizen B in a choke hold is quite different from police officer C putting criminal suspect D in a choke hold.

12/4/2014 12:15 PM
burnsy483
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Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2014 12:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2014 12:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2014 11:55:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2014 11:08:00 AM (view original):
I looked up these yesterday.  Based on the definitions of these crimes, I don't understand how it at least doesn't go to trial.

S 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.   A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.  Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.   S 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.   A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:   1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or   2. He commits upon a female an abortional act which causes her death, unless such abortional act is justifiable pursuant to subdivision three of section 125.05 or   3. He intentionally causes or aids another person to commit suicide.  Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.
I'm guessing the laws work a little differently for cops.     He was detaining a suspect.   You or I would just be choking some random dude out.    I drive past a guy walking in the middle of the road and tell him to get his *** out of the road.   A struggle ensues.   I'm looked at as the aggressor.   Not so much with a cop.
Cops should be held to a higher standard in their use of force since they're the ones with the power and the weapons.

Cops are also the ones on the front lines dealing with the often violent scum of society.

Random citizen A putting random citizen B in a choke hold is quite different from police officer C putting criminal suspect D in a choke hold.

I guess I'll post it again - 

Yes, laws are somewhat different when it comes to cops, because of the nature of their job.  If this was anyone else, they'd be going to trial for murder or 1st degree manslaughter, because you can't just put someone in a chokehold and bring them to the ground for no reason. Because it's a cop, criminally negligent homicide makes the most sense, in my opinion. Generally when someone tells you that they're having trouble with a normal life function, like breathing, that you shouldn't continue to do what you're doing. Or when it appears that they're dying after you didn't stop suffocating this person, to try to bring them back to life sooner than 7 minutes later. It sounds like there's a great chance he was negligent. Not going to trial seems insane.
12/4/2014 12:22 PM
bad_luck
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From Redstate, one of the most conservative blogs around:

 "Just last year, Newsday ran a damning report about the police in New York in particular and the endemic misconduct over which virtually no oversight is conducted. If you read only one thing today, read this.

And now, because the police earn such automatic and unjustified trust in the minds of so many, even on the rare occasion that a cop is actually videotaped, the criminal justice system cannot be trusted to provide effective oversight.

Pathetic."

12/4/2014 12:30 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 12/4/2014 12:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 12/4/2014 12:08:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 12/4/2014 11:55:00 AM (view original):
Posted by burnsy483 on 12/4/2014 11:08:00 AM (view original):
I looked up these yesterday.  Based on the definitions of these crimes, I don't understand how it at least doesn't go to trial.

S 125.10 Criminally negligent homicide.   A person is guilty of criminally negligent homicide when, with criminal negligence, he causes the death of another person.  Criminally negligent homicide is a class E felony.   S 125.15 Manslaughter in the second degree.   A person is guilty of manslaughter in the second degree when:   1. He recklessly causes the death of another person; or   2. He commits upon a female an abortional act which causes her death, unless such abortional act is justifiable pursuant to subdivision three of section 125.05 or   3. He intentionally causes or aids another person to commit suicide.  Manslaughter in the second degree is a class C felony.
I'm guessing the laws work a little differently for cops.     He was detaining a suspect.   You or I would just be choking some random dude out.    I drive past a guy walking in the middle of the road and tell him to get his *** out of the road.   A struggle ensues.   I'm looked at as the aggressor.   Not so much with a cop.
Cops should be held to a higher standard in their use of force since they're the ones with the power and the weapons.

Cops are also the ones on the front lines dealing with the often violent scum of society.

Random citizen A putting random citizen B in a choke hold is quite different from police officer C putting criminal suspect D in a choke hold.

Most cops are able to effectively handle violent scum without murdering non-violent citizens. Unfortunately for Garner, Pantaleo is not "most cops."

12/4/2014 12:34 PM
burnsy483
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It should be noted that Newsday leans liberal.
12/4/2014 12:37 PM
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