And, finally, how do we know who confronted who?   As I've said several times, TM's friend said the only words she heard was "Why you following me"?

Not "Why you touching me?", "Why you pulling a gun on me?", "Why you tackling me?" or anything along that line.

FWIW, I don't think anyone is saying GZ is without fault or that he didn't make some really bad decisions.   But he did nothing criminal.

Posted by bad_luck on 7/16/2013 2:53:00 PM (view original):
I'm definitely going with my gut on this one. Like I said before, juries should err on the side of acquittal. In this case, I think Zimmerman should go to prison. I'm uncomfortable with a law that allows someone to follow and confront an unarmed teenager, shoot the teenager to death, and then claim self defense.

Maybe I'm the one being unreasonable. I don't know.

If you ever get summoned for jury duty, please be sure to refer the judge to this thread.  You'll get out of it lightning fast.

Posted by MikeT23 on 7/16/2013 2:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 1:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 7/16/2013 1:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 7/16/2013 12:58:00 PM (view original):
In my opinion, the racism is obvious. Why are you so stupid?

Hypothetical situation:

Two guys jump a third dude as he exits a bar at 2am, and beat the **** out of him.

Is that racially motivated?

Probably not.

What makes it seem racially motivated is that he followed him in the first place, said he looked suspicious, and mentioned something along the lines of "******* ******** get away with everything."  What was so suspicious?  What was he getting away with?  Makes you wonder if it was some white kid walking around, if he would have thought the same thing.  If you think that sounds wrong of me to say, I understand.

Are you implying that Zimmerman never followed a white kid because he thought he looked suspicious?

Source, please.

I am not.

What was so suspicious? What was he getting away with?  What made him an *******?

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 3:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 7/16/2013 2:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 1:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 7/16/2013 1:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 7/16/2013 12:58:00 PM (view original):
In my opinion, the racism is obvious. Why are you so stupid?

Hypothetical situation:

Two guys jump a third dude as he exits a bar at 2am, and beat the **** out of him.

Is that racially motivated?

Probably not.

What makes it seem racially motivated is that he followed him in the first place, said he looked suspicious, and mentioned something along the lines of "******* ******** get away with everything."  What was so suspicious?  What was he getting away with?  Makes you wonder if it was some white kid walking around, if he would have thought the same thing.  If you think that sounds wrong of me to say, I understand.

Are you implying that Zimmerman never followed a white kid because he thought he looked suspicious?

Source, please.

I am not.

What was so suspicious? What was he getting away with?  What made him an *******?

He was a stranger walking in the rain.   Hoodie or no, what do you think people on neighborhood watch do?   Keep an eye on the people they know?

Posted by MikeT23 on 7/16/2013 3:00:00 PM (view original):
FWIW, I don't think anyone is saying GZ is without fault or that he didn't make some really bad decisions.   But he did nothing criminal.

He MAY have done something criminal.  We don't know for sure.  But there was obvious doubt that made it very difficult to send him to prison.

Two people made some really dumb decisions, and one has paid for it with his life.  And while Zim may not be in jail, he has to live with this guilt, and is constantly fearful of his life.

It's neighborhood watch, not neighborhood follow and kill.

Posted by MikeT23 on 7/16/2013 3:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 3:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 7/16/2013 2:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 1:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 7/16/2013 1:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 7/16/2013 12:58:00 PM (view original):
In my opinion, the racism is obvious. Why are you so stupid?

Hypothetical situation:

Two guys jump a third dude as he exits a bar at 2am, and beat the **** out of him.

Is that racially motivated?

Probably not.

What makes it seem racially motivated is that he followed him in the first place, said he looked suspicious, and mentioned something along the lines of "******* ******** get away with everything."  What was so suspicious?  What was he getting away with?  Makes you wonder if it was some white kid walking around, if he would have thought the same thing.  If you think that sounds wrong of me to say, I understand.

Are you implying that Zimmerman never followed a white kid because he thought he looked suspicious?

Source, please.

I am not.

What was so suspicious? What was he getting away with?  What made him an *******?

He was a stranger walking in the rain.   Hoodie or no, what do you think people on neighborhood watch do?   Keep an eye on the people they know?

Is every stranger walking in the rain suspicious?  

What made him an *******?

Posted by bad_luck on 7/16/2013 3:10:00 PM (view original):
It's neighborhood watch, not neighborhood follow and kill.

What do they do when they see something suspicious?

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 3:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 7/16/2013 3:09:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 3:07:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 7/16/2013 2:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 1:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 7/16/2013 1:11:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 7/16/2013 12:58:00 PM (view original):
In my opinion, the racism is obvious. Why are you so stupid?

Hypothetical situation:

Two guys jump a third dude as he exits a bar at 2am, and beat the **** out of him.

Is that racially motivated?

Probably not.

What makes it seem racially motivated is that he followed him in the first place, said he looked suspicious, and mentioned something along the lines of "******* ******** get away with everything."  What was so suspicious?  What was he getting away with?  Makes you wonder if it was some white kid walking around, if he would have thought the same thing.  If you think that sounds wrong of me to say, I understand.

Are you implying that Zimmerman never followed a white kid because he thought he looked suspicious?

Source, please.

I am not.

What was so suspicious? What was he getting away with?  What made him an *******?

He was a stranger walking in the rain.   Hoodie or no, what do you think people on neighborhood watch do?   Keep an eye on the people they know?

Is every stranger walking in the rain suspicious?  

What made him an *******?

If you see a stranger, concealing his identity, walking in the rain thru your neighborhood would you be suspicious?

I assume his upbringing made him an *******.   How GZ knew that at a glance is beyond me.

What was he supposed to do in the rain?  Take his hoodie off?

GZ saw someone, said he was a ******* *******, assuming he was guilty of something.  He knew nothing about him except for what he saw.

I don't think it's unreasonable for me to conclude that he was racially profiling based on this.

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 2:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by akira_hokuto on 7/16/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 1:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 7/16/2013 1:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 1:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 7/16/2013 1:33:00 PM (view original):
I think a manslaughter conviction would have been a just outcome.

Zimmerman didn't intend to kill Martin and may have believed his life was in danger but is guilty because he acted unreasonably.

Acted unreasonably in what way?  What do you do if someone attacking you tries to get your gun from you?

I think it's more likely that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation. That makes his actions unreasonable.

Based on what? Why do you feel that way?  Is there any reasonable doubt in your mind that maybe it was Martin who attacked Zimmerman first?

None of us know exactly how the physical confrontation started but I'll tell you this, if I thought someone was following me and then I ran away (as Martin did per Zimmerman) and then saw the guy who had been following me was still following me I might well think I was about to be attacked myself and to be honest I'm not sure how I'd react in that situation. How would you react under those circumstances?

I would have asked him why he was following me.

Which if you believe Rachael J. is exactly what he did ..... then what?

Posted by akira_hokuto on 7/16/2013 3:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 2:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by akira_hokuto on 7/16/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 1:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 7/16/2013 1:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 1:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 7/16/2013 1:33:00 PM (view original):
I think a manslaughter conviction would have been a just outcome.

Zimmerman didn't intend to kill Martin and may have believed his life was in danger but is guilty because he acted unreasonably.

Acted unreasonably in what way?  What do you do if someone attacking you tries to get your gun from you?

I think it's more likely that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation. That makes his actions unreasonable.

Based on what? Why do you feel that way?  Is there any reasonable doubt in your mind that maybe it was Martin who attacked Zimmerman first?

None of us know exactly how the physical confrontation started but I'll tell you this, if I thought someone was following me and then I ran away (as Martin did per Zimmerman) and then saw the guy who had been following me was still following me I might well think I was about to be attacked myself and to be honest I'm not sure how I'd react in that situation. How would you react under those circumstances?

I would have asked him why he was following me.

Which if you believe Rachael J. is exactly what he did ..... then what?

There's a lot of doubt on what happened next.

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 3:15:00 PM (view original):
What was he supposed to do in the rain?  Take his hoodie off?

GZ saw someone, said he was a ******* *******, assuming he was guilty of something.  He knew nothing about him except for what he saw.

I don't think it's unreasonable for me to conclude that he was racially profiling based on this.

Beats me what he was supposed to do.  Not punch anyone in the face would have been a start.   Just saying.

Some people talk like that all the time.   "*******" and "*******" are just part of their vocabulary.   He didn't assume he was guilty of anything.   He was just intent on finding out why he was doing what he was doing.

I think it's HIGHLY unreasonable to assume it was racial profiling.

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 3:18:00 PM (view original):

Posted by akira_hokuto on 7/16/2013 3:17:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 2:53:00 PM (view original):

Posted by akira_hokuto on 7/16/2013 1:59:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 1:48:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 7/16/2013 1:45:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 7/16/2013 1:38:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 7/16/2013 1:33:00 PM (view original):
I think a manslaughter conviction would have been a just outcome.

Zimmerman didn't intend to kill Martin and may have believed his life was in danger but is guilty because he acted unreasonably.

Acted unreasonably in what way?  What do you do if someone attacking you tries to get your gun from you?

I think it's more likely that Zimmerman initiated the confrontation. That makes his actions unreasonable.

Based on what? Why do you feel that way?  Is there any reasonable doubt in your mind that maybe it was Martin who attacked Zimmerman first?

None of us know exactly how the physical confrontation started but I'll tell you this, if I thought someone was following me and then I ran away (as Martin did per Zimmerman) and then saw the guy who had been following me was still following me I might well think I was about to be attacked myself and to be honest I'm not sure how I'd react in that situation. How would you react under those circumstances?

I would have asked him why he was following me.

Which if you believe Rachael J. is exactly what he did ..... then what?

There's a lot of doubt on what happened next.

I'm completely in agreement with that point.