OK, I'm starting to see where the problem is.  The government spends more than it collects in revenues... that's a deficit.  BadLuck thinks that the government spending even MORE isn't making the situation worse.  The reason this is just wrong is that a lot of the government spending isn't necessarily all domestic (i.e. jobs, roads, programs), and a LOT of the money never makes it to US consumers.  It's going overseas to fund wars or pay interest to China (who basically owns the mortgage on the country).  We have to reduce the amount of EXTERNAL debt because those payouts don't help our economy at all.  Government spending inside our own borders exacerbates the problem because we're not paying down our debts elsewhere.

Posted by bad_luck on 2/28/2013 3:03:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/28/2013 2:59:00 PM (view original):
You're just trying to make me laugh now, aren't you?

So it was a greater increase than 2010 and 2011?   Tough run.    What was 2010 and 2011?   1.8% or so?

Right. The economy was really ****** in 2010 and 2011. Now that it's starting to turn around, consumer confidence is rising. Despite the super scawwy deficit.

So the economy isn't ****** now?  Throw more money at the problem?   That's been working, right?

Domestic PORK spending needs to be cut down, and that money needs to go to debt reduction, NOT more social programs.

The government is like a family in debt that spends their inheritance on a trip to Hawaii instead of paying off their debts.

Posted by toddcommish on 2/28/2013 3:19:00 PM (view original):
OK, I'm starting to see where the problem is.  The government spends more than it collects in revenues... that's a deficit.  BadLuck thinks that the government spending even MORE isn't making the situation worse.  The reason this is just wrong is that a lot of the government spending isn't necessarily all domestic (i.e. jobs, roads, programs), and a LOT of the money never makes it to US consumers.  It's going overseas to fund wars or pay interest to China (who basically owns the mortgage on the country).  We have to reduce the amount of EXTERNAL debt because those payouts don't help our economy at all.  Government spending inside our own borders exacerbates the problem because we're not paying down our debts elsewhere.

Let's call "revenue" "Taxpayer's money".    Because that's what it is.  Revenue is generated when the consumer likes and wants your product.   I'm pretty unhappy with the way the "revenue" forcibly collected from me is used.

Most of us are.

Posted by tecwrg on 2/28/2013 2:58:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/28/2013 2:26:00 PM (view original):
Nope.

So wouldn't cutting the "not so smart" spending be a good thing to do?  Or is it your contention that foolish government spending is a good thing for the economy?

Well, let's think about it. We all acknowledge that the deficit is spent by the government and goes into the economy. We all acknowledge that that spending can be wasteful and inefficient.

Where does the deficit come from? Not taxes, or it wouldn't be a deficit. It comes from investors, mostly US, who want a safe place to hold their money. If the government stopped issuing bonds, those investors would put their money in other safe places - CDs, savings accounts, etc.  Essentially the money would sit still in an account somewhere earning 1% in interest.

Instead it goes to the government. The government uses it on all kinds of stuff, good and bad - bureaucrat salaries, construction projects, medicare, social safety nets, defense, Amtrak snack subsidies.

Let's say that $200 billion (completely making that number up, but I'm guessing it's high) of the $800 billion deficit is not so smart spending. Cutting that $200 billion still takes $200 billion completely out of the economy.

So yes, right now, foolish government spending is better than no spending by anyone.

Posted by toddcommish on 2/28/2013 3:19:00 PM (view original):
OK, I'm starting to see where the problem is.  The government spends more than it collects in revenues... that's a deficit.  BadLuck thinks that the government spending even MORE isn't making the situation worse.  The reason this is just wrong is that a lot of the government spending isn't necessarily all domestic (i.e. jobs, roads, programs), and a LOT of the money never makes it to US consumers.  It's going overseas to fund wars or pay interest to China (who basically owns the mortgage on the country).  We have to reduce the amount of EXTERNAL debt because those payouts don't help our economy at all.  Government spending inside our own borders exacerbates the problem because we're not paying down our debts elsewhere.

China only owns 8% of our debt. Not exactly a mortgage (and of course, even if it was 100% it's not collateralized).

What about the interest we are paying on our ever growing external debt?  How is that helping the economy?

Posted by tecwrg on 2/28/2013 4:28:00 PM (view original):
What about the interest we are paying on our ever growing external debt?  How is that helping the economy?

That's a legit gripe. About $200 billion of the budget goes toward interest. But that's interest on the total debt of $14 trillion. That's a pretty good deal and not something we'd be able to pay down anytime soon anyway.

Let's just call it like it is.   badluck believes any deficit reduction MIGHT be bad.  So let's stay the course.   I guess because it's working so well.

Posted by MikeT23 on 2/28/2013 5:31:00 PM (view original):
Let's just call it like it is.   badluck believes any deficit reduction MIGHT be bad.  So let's stay the course.   I guess because it's working so well.

No, I'm saying that any reduction in the deficit will slow the economy by a proportional amount. I'm also saying that maintaining a high deficit, while not a good thing, is preferable to buttfucking the economy just as it's starting to come around.

Posted by tecwrg on 2/28/2013 6:13:00 PM (view original):
So yes, right now, foolish government spending is better than no spending by anyone.

So the DOD spending $83.75 for a $4.95 wrench is better for the economy than the DOD not buying a wrench at all?

Unfortunately, yes.

Posted by bad_luck on 2/28/2013 6:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 2/28/2013 6:13:00 PM (view original):
So yes, right now, foolish government spending is better than no spending by anyone.

So the DOD spending $83.75 for a $4.95 wrench is better for the economy than the DOD not buying a wrench at all?

Unfortunately, yes.

That's incredibly stupid.

That's swamp-level stupid.

Posted by tecwrg on 2/28/2013 6:37:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 2/28/2013 6:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 2/28/2013 6:13:00 PM (view original):
So yes, right now, foolish government spending is better than no spending by anyone.

So the DOD spending $83.75 for a $4.95 wrench is better for the economy than the DOD not buying a wrench at all?

Unfortunately, yes.

That's incredibly stupid.

That's swamp-level stupid.

Why?

$83.75 goes to a company that sells wrenches. It's inefficient and wasteful but it's $83.75 moving through the economy instead of sitting in a savings account somewhere.