Socialism Experiment Topic

swamphawk22
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Posted by bad_luck on 2/28/2013 12:29:00 PM (view original):
Government spending is a HUGE part of the economy. Construction, defense, manufacturing, law enforcement, etc., etc., etc. You do rely on it, whether you know it or not.

And yes, it would, but I don't think that's a viable option.
The money the government spends is tanken out of the economy. And it is spent in a wasteful way so it actually takes away from the eceonomy.

Let the people and the companies spend their money and we will all be in a better place.
2/28/2013 1:39 PM
bad_luck
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I'm thinking you're the one who has no idea. 

No one is arguing that we should try to run an $800 billion dollar deficit forever. We can't and we won't. 

All you have to do is look at this chart:



and you see that the majority of the deficit originated from the economic crash and the vanishing tax revenues. When the economy gets back to full strength, a huge chunk of the deficit goes away without any tax rate increases.

But right now, on the list of stuff that matters, the deficit is way behind employment and GDP growth. And since fixing that "problem" with spending cuts negatively affects employment and GDP growth, we should wait.
2/28/2013 1:51 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by swamphawk22 on 2/28/2013 1:39:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/28/2013 12:29:00 PM (view original):
Government spending is a HUGE part of the economy. Construction, defense, manufacturing, law enforcement, etc., etc., etc. You do rely on it, whether you know it or not.

And yes, it would, but I don't think that's a viable option.
The money the government spends is tanken out of the economy. And it is spent in a wasteful way so it actually takes away from the eceonomy.

Let the people and the companies spend their money and we will all be in a better place.
It's a deficit. By definition it isn't being taken out of the economy.
2/28/2013 1:51 PM
MikeT23
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When is this recovery coming?    I thought we agreed cuts could be made that wouldn't affect the economy?

The problem is our government knows how to spend and, well, I don't know that they know how to do anything else but point fingers.

How long can you accept our government being irresponsible with tax money?

10 pages ago I said "**** hope.  Give me a plan."   While it's not your job, you haven't offered a plan.  You've just fully-supported the current course.  Which is dumb.  Current course is NOT working.   Join me in asking for a plan.
2/28/2013 1:56 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/28/2013 1:56:00 PM (view original):
When is this recovery coming?    I thought we agreed cuts could be made that wouldn't affect the economy?

The problem is our government knows how to spend and, well, I don't know that they know how to do anything else but point fingers.

How long can you accept our government being irresponsible with tax money?

10 pages ago I said "**** hope.  Give me a plan."   While it's not your job, you haven't offered a plan.  You've just fully-supported the current course.  Which is dumb.  Current course is NOT working.   Join me in asking for a plan.
I'm all for a plan. Like I said several pages ago, I have problems with things we've done over the last few years.

The fed has been too tight with money. We should have extended the stimulus program. We should not have ended the payroll tax break. We should not have raised income tax rates.

The recovery will never come if we focus on reducing the deficit through spending cuts. We can't take $300 billion or $500 billion or $800 billion out of the economy while unemployment is still at 7.8% and GDP growth is less than 2% and not expect the economy to take a proportional hit.
2/28/2013 2:02 PM
tecwrg
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So what bad_luck is saying is that we've dug ourselves into a deep hole, and the best way to get out of the hole is keep digging deeper until magic happens.

GOOD PLAN!

2/28/2013 2:05 PM
MikeT23
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And here's where we have our circular argument.

I think we agree that consumer confidence drives the economy.   Confident people spend and that helps the economy.

My contention is that the highly publicized economic issues, which includes increasing deficit, erodes that confidence.   You seem to think that does not matter.  But, and you never addressed this, people with income and security aren't spending .  Why?
2/28/2013 2:07 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 2/28/2013 2:07:00 PM (view original):

So what bad_luck is saying is that we've dug ourselves into a deep hole, and the best way to get out of the hole is keep digging deeper until magic happens.

GOOD PLAN!

The "hole" is not the deficit, it's the ****** economy.

Cutting the deficit through spending cuts digs the hole deeper.
2/28/2013 2:07 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/28/2013 2:07:00 PM (view original):
And here's where we have our circular argument.

I think we agree that consumer confidence drives the economy.   Confident people spend and that helps the economy.

My contention is that the highly publicized economic issues, which includes increasing deficit, erodes that confidence.   You seem to think that does not matter.  But, and you never addressed this, people with income and security aren't spending .  Why?
People with income and and security are spending. Consumer spending grew in the 4th quarter by 2.1%. There just aren't enough people with income and security yet.
2/28/2013 2:09 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by tecwrg on 2/28/2013 2:07:00 PM (view original):

So what bad_luck is saying is that we've dug ourselves into a deep hole, and the best way to get out of the hole is keep digging deeper until magic happens.

GOOD PLAN!

To be fair, it's not his plan.   There are plenty of elected officials who helped form it and endorse it.
2/28/2013 2:10 PM
tecwrg
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Posted by bad_luck on 2/28/2013 2:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 2/28/2013 2:07:00 PM (view original):

So what bad_luck is saying is that we've dug ourselves into a deep hole, and the best way to get out of the hole is keep digging deeper until magic happens.

GOOD PLAN!

The "hole" is not the deficit, it's the ****** economy.

Cutting the deficit through spending cuts digs the hole deeper.
Is trying to build or sustain an economy on a foundation of ever growing debt a good idea?
2/28/2013 2:14 PM
MikeT23
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Posted by bad_luck on 2/28/2013 2:09:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/28/2013 2:07:00 PM (view original):
And here's where we have our circular argument.

I think we agree that consumer confidence drives the economy.   Confident people spend and that helps the economy.

My contention is that the highly publicized economic issues, which includes increasing deficit, erodes that confidence.   You seem to think that does not matter.  But, and you never addressed this, people with income and security aren't spending .  Why?
People with income and and security are spending. Consumer spending grew in the 4th quarter by 2.1%. There just aren't enough people with income and security yet.
I'm not sure increased spending in the 4th quarter is noteworthy.   I assume you can look that up and see a pattern.
2/28/2013 2:15 PM
The Taint
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Christmas and credit cards. It's the American way.
2/28/2013 2:17 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by MikeT23 on 2/28/2013 2:15:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/28/2013 2:09:00 PM (view original):
Posted by MikeT23 on 2/28/2013 2:07:00 PM (view original):
And here's where we have our circular argument.

I think we agree that consumer confidence drives the economy.   Confident people spend and that helps the economy.

My contention is that the highly publicized economic issues, which includes increasing deficit, erodes that confidence.   You seem to think that does not matter.  But, and you never addressed this, people with income and security aren't spending .  Why?
People with income and and security are spending. Consumer spending grew in the 4th quarter by 2.1%. There just aren't enough people with income and security yet.
I'm not sure increased spending in the 4th quarter is noteworthy.   I assume you can look that up and see a pattern.
It's a seasonally adjusted, year over year number. Not a comparison to the third quarter. But you knew that, right?
2/28/2013 2:17 PM
bad_luck
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Posted by tecwrg on 2/28/2013 2:14:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bad_luck on 2/28/2013 2:07:00 PM (view original):
Posted by tecwrg on 2/28/2013 2:07:00 PM (view original):

So what bad_luck is saying is that we've dug ourselves into a deep hole, and the best way to get out of the hole is keep digging deeper until magic happens.

GOOD PLAN!

The "hole" is not the deficit, it's the ****** economy.

Cutting the deficit through spending cuts digs the hole deeper.
Is trying to build or sustain an economy on a foundation of ever growing debt a good idea?
Trying not to let the economy come crashing down because of a "sky is falling" panic.

See if you can follow:

High deficit - bad.
Cutting spending to reduce the deficit while the economy is weak - worse

I'm arguing that we should take the bad option in order to avoid the worse option.
2/28/2013 2:20 PM
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