Posted by tecwrg on 5/28/2014 1:14:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/28/2014 1:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/28/2014 1:09:00 PM (view original):
Thanks for being intentionally dense. 

Do you think players swing the bat with the intention of making an out?

"Hey Jimmy, grab your bat, get on out there, and ground out to second"

"You got it, skip!"

Or better yet, in BL's view of the world:

"Hey Jimmy, we got a runner on first.  Go hit into a 6-4-3 for me."

"You got it, skip"

Posted by tecwrg on 5/28/2014 1:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/28/2014 12:55:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 5/28/2014 12:47:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/28/2014 12:33:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 5/28/2014 12:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/28/2014 12:27:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 5/28/2014 12:24:00 PM (view original):
TV on right. 

Though I'm not upset with the GIDP player, because he made contact and put the ball in play.  Roughly 33% of the time, good things will happen when you do that.  Roughly 0% of the time will something good happen offensively with a strikeout.  Smart baseball.

Your turn.

TV on left.

I thought in your world, all outs were the same?

Have you changed your opinion?

I thought in your world, outs in play were always better than strikeouts?

Have you changed your opinion?

Nope.  Unless something has changed since the last time I checked, double plays count as two outs.  I think that's what the "double" part is referring to in the name.

A (single) out in play generally will not be worse than a strikeout, and will more often than not be better than a K.  Two outs will generally be worse than a strikeout.

So you agree, some outs in play are much worse than other outs.

I agree (if this is what you are saying) that two outs are generally, if not always, going to be worse than one out, no matter how they are achieved.

So what are we arguing about?

You've been arguing "an out is an out".

Now you seem to have backed out of that and fallen back to a much safer "two outs are worse than one" argument.

What will you be arguing an hour from now?

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/28/2014 1:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/28/2014 1:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/28/2014 1:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/28/2014 1:09:00 PM (view original):
Thanks for being intentionally dense. 

Do you think players swing the bat with the intention of making an out?

Huh? No. 

This was also directed at BL.

Well, as you said, I refuse to read his posts.

Anyway, I was trying to suck you into the eeyore "Oh no.  I'll probably hit into a double play.  May as well not swing" argument.

I've never gotten close to making that argument, so I'm confused why you're trying to get it out of me.  I've been arguing that putting the ball in play is much better than not.  I do like your pictures though.  I have a friend who I call Eeyore because he has that mentality too often in general.

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/28/2014 1:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/28/2014 1:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/28/2014 1:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/28/2014 1:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/28/2014 1:09:00 PM (view original):
Thanks for being intentionally dense. 

Do you think players swing the bat with the intention of making an out?

Huh? No. 

This was also directed at BL.

Well, as you said, I refuse to read his posts.

Anyway, I was trying to suck you into the eeyore "Oh no.  I'll probably hit into a double play.  May as well not swing" argument.

I've never gotten close to making that argument, so I'm confused why you're trying to get it out of me.  I've been arguing that putting the ball in play is much better than not.  I do like your pictures though.  I have a friend who I call Eeyore because he has that mentality too often in general.

In your response to BL that I thought was to me "Thanks for being intentionally dense" seemed to be heading into eeyore territory.

Posted by tecwrg on 5/28/2014 1:18:00 PM (view original):
You've been arguing "an out is an out".

Now you seem to have backed out of that and fallen back to a much safer "two outs are worse than one" argument.

What will you be arguing an hour from now?

I don't think my argument has ever changed.

Overall, an out is an out.

In individual situations, some outs have different run values but it evens out over the course of a season. We know this because team runs scored totals do not correlate with K rates.

And, as you so skillfully pointed out in your last couple posts, players don't go up trying to ground out. Which, to me, means that they can't control how/when they make their outs. Sometimes an out in play is made when you want a certain out in play over other outs. Sometimes that out in play is made when it absolutely kills an inning.

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/28/2014 1:20:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/28/2014 1:19:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/28/2014 1:15:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/28/2014 1:12:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/28/2014 1:10:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/28/2014 1:09:00 PM (view original):
Thanks for being intentionally dense. 

Do you think players swing the bat with the intention of making an out?

Huh? No. 

This was also directed at BL.

Well, as you said, I refuse to read his posts.

Anyway, I was trying to suck you into the eeyore "Oh no.  I'll probably hit into a double play.  May as well not swing" argument.

I've never gotten close to making that argument, so I'm confused why you're trying to get it out of me.  I've been arguing that putting the ball in play is much better than not.  I do like your pictures though.  I have a friend who I call Eeyore because he has that mentality too often in general.

In your response to BL that I thought was to me "Thanks for being intentionally dense" seemed to be heading into eeyore territory.

I've never argued that players shouldn't put the ball in play.

Posted by bad_luck on 5/28/2014 1:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 5/28/2014 1:18:00 PM (view original):
You've been arguing "an out is an out".

Now you seem to have backed out of that and fallen back to a much safer "two outs are worse than one" argument.

What will you be arguing an hour from now?

I don't think my argument has ever changed.

Overall, an out is an out.

In individual situations, some outs have different run values but it evens out over the course of a season. We know this because team runs scored totals do not correlate with K rates.

And, as you so skillfully pointed out in your last couple posts, players don't go up trying to ground out. Which, to me, means that they can't control how/when they make their outs. Sometimes an out in play is made when you want a certain out in play over other outs. Sometimes that out in play is made when it absolutely kills an inning.

Do you understand that the guy batting in the bottom of the 8th in a tie game may/should have a different approach with a man on 2nd and no outs than a man on 1st with no outs?

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/28/2014 1:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/28/2014 1:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 5/28/2014 1:18:00 PM (view original):
You've been arguing "an out is an out".

Now you seem to have backed out of that and fallen back to a much safer "two outs are worse than one" argument.

What will you be arguing an hour from now?

I don't think my argument has ever changed.

Overall, an out is an out.

In individual situations, some outs have different run values but it evens out over the course of a season. We know this because team runs scored totals do not correlate with K rates.

And, as you so skillfully pointed out in your last couple posts, players don't go up trying to ground out. Which, to me, means that they can't control how/when they make their outs. Sometimes an out in play is made when you want a certain out in play over other outs. Sometimes that out in play is made when it absolutely kills an inning.

Do you understand that the guy batting in the bottom of the 8th in a tie game may/should have a different approach with a man on 2nd and no outs than a man on 1st with no outs?

Sure. Has anyone shown any evidence that they don't change their approach?

Oh my.  Does BL think MLB players can't push/pull a ball in a general direction?  Or maybe lift a ball to produce a fly?   

I'm not saying "I'm going to hit the ball 278 ft about 9 ft off the RF line" type of direction but just a general direction.

Posted by MikeT23 on 5/28/2014 1:34:00 PM (view original):
Oh my.  Does BL think MLB players can't push/pull a ball in a general direction?  Or maybe lift a ball to produce a fly?   

I'm not saying "I'm going to hit the ball 278 ft about 9 ft off the RF line" type of direction but just a general direction.

And, for the record, obviously some cannot.    Otherwise we wouldn't see the exaggerated shifts.    And, as with the bunting against the shift, they shouldn't bother to try.   Adam Dunn/Austin Jackson argument yesterday.   I don't want AD bunting or taking something off his swing regardless of the situation.   It's not in his skillset.

Posted by bad_luck on 5/28/2014 1:28:00 PM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 5/28/2014 1:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 5/28/2014 1:25:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tecwrg on 5/28/2014 1:18:00 PM (view original):
You've been arguing "an out is an out".

Now you seem to have backed out of that and fallen back to a much safer "two outs are worse than one" argument.

What will you be arguing an hour from now?

I don't think my argument has ever changed.

Overall, an out is an out.

In individual situations, some outs have different run values but it evens out over the course of a season. We know this because team runs scored totals do not correlate with K rates.

And, as you so skillfully pointed out in your last couple posts, players don't go up trying to ground out. Which, to me, means that they can't control how/when they make their outs. Sometimes an out in play is made when you want a certain out in play over other outs. Sometimes that out in play is made when it absolutely kills an inning.

Do you understand that the guy batting in the bottom of the 8th in a tie game may/should have a different approach with a man on 2nd and no outs than a man on 1st with no outs?

Sure. Has anyone shown any evidence that they don't change their approach?

I'm not saying there is or isn't evidence.

"And, as you so skillfully pointed out in your last couple posts, players don't go up trying to ground out. Which, to me, means that they can't control how/when they make their outs. Sometimes an out in play is made when you want a certain out in play over other outs. Sometimes that out in play is made when it absolutely kills an inning."

The above makes it sound like you didn't think batters can adjust their ability to hit the ball differently in certain situations.  

That's fair. I think we are all generalizing here. In general, I don't think there's much a player should do to change their approach. The exception being very rare situations, like tie game, bottom 9 with a guy on third and one out. Other than very limited situations, I think players should stick with what they do best because they really can't control how/when they make outs. Selling out to make contact for the sake of making contact is foolish.

The strikeout rate is at an all-time high.    Doesn't that indicate that something has changed?   What, exactly, is it?

Posted by bad_luck on 5/28/2014 3:10:00 PM (view original):
That's fair. I think we are all generalizing here. In general, I don't think there's much a player should do to change their approach. The exception being very rare situations, like tie game, bottom 9 with a guy on third and one out. Other than very limited situations, I think players should stick with what they do best because they really can't control how/when they make outs. Selling out to make contact for the sake of making contact is foolish.

Hitting the ball the other way isn't a novel or difficult concept for most players.  Man on 2nd, no outs, 1-1 game in the 8th, it's probably a good idea to try to hit the ball that way.  If you disagree, it feeds into the rhetoric of "you don't watch baseball" that tec likes to throw down your throat. I know you understand the importance of moving a runner to 3rd there if it's possible.

EDIT: At worse, moving the runner over.  Again, I'm not arguing that a player should give himself up.  But trying to hit a line drive to right field isn't crazy.  You might not hit a line drive, but that means it could be a ground ball or deep fly ball that way, which would make for a productive out.