FWIW, I'm not saying I don't appreciate good defense. I'm saying the average fan is not factoring defense in at all when voting for who should be in. It's either popularity or offensive numbers.

Which is why someone like Vizquel only had 2 ASG appearances.

Posted by Jtpsops on 7/8/2016 3:19:00 PM (view original):
FWIW, I'm not saying I don't appreciate good defense. I'm saying the average fan is not factoring defense in at all when voting for who should be in. It's either popularity or offensive numbers.

Which is why someone like Vizquel only had 2 ASG appearances.

Vizquel also wasn't great and played during an era full of great shortstops.

Blah blah blah.

Point is, he had the reputation of being a really good defender. Pick someone else if it makes you more comfortable. There have been very few defense-only players make the ASG.

I don't think dahs was arguing for a defense only player. He just took defense into account.

Posted by bad_luck on 7/8/2016 4:38:00 PM (view original):
I don't think dahs was arguing for a defense only player. He just took defense into account.

I'm aware. And then the topic became whether fans considered defense when voting. It would be nice if you could keep up with a discussion in at least one thread.

Again, I think it's obvious that the fans considered defense. Why else would they have voted for Ozzie? There were a bunch of years when Barry Larkin was clearly the best SS in the National League from an offensive or overall perspective and the fans were still voting Ozzie as the starter year after year. No way to validate that if they weren't considering defense.

Posted by dahsdebater on 7/9/2016 12:58:00 PM (view original):
Again, I think it's obvious that the fans considered defense. Why else would they have voted for Ozzie? There were a bunch of years when Barry Larkin was clearly the best SS in the National League from an offensive or overall perspective and the fans were still voting Ozzie as the starter year after year. No way to validate that if they weren't considering defense.

No, that shows that fans consider media hype more than actual productivity. Kinda like voters...

Posted by dahsdebater on 7/9/2016 12:58:00 PM (view original):
Again, I think it's obvious that the fans considered defense. Why else would they have voted for Ozzie? There were a bunch of years when Barry Larkin was clearly the best SS in the National League from an offensive or overall perspective and the fans were still voting Ozzie as the starter year after year. No way to validate that if they weren't considering defense.

When Ozzie played, he had the general reputation as one of the greatest defensive shortstops ever. Same with Brooks Robinson as a 3B. People/voters hear that, and even if they've only seen occasional highlights of their defensive skills, they're voting for them on "best ever" reputation alone. Not necessarily because of a personally observed appreciation of their defensive abilities (aside from the 1970 WS highlights for BR).

Posted by Jtpsops on 7/9/2016 11:47:00 AM (view original):

Posted by bad_luck on 7/8/2016 4:38:00 PM (view original):
I don't think dahs was arguing for a defense only player. He just took defense into account.

I'm aware. And then the topic became whether fans considered defense when voting. It would be nice if you could keep up with a discussion in at least one thread.

Considering defense and voting for defense only players are two different things.

Regarding AL 3rd base, Donaldson's defense is a bonus on top of his offensive production. Plenty of fans take that into account.

Posted by tecwrg on 7/9/2016 4:43:00 PM (view original):

Posted by dahsdebater on 7/9/2016 12:58:00 PM (view original):
Again, I think it's obvious that the fans considered defense. Why else would they have voted for Ozzie? There were a bunch of years when Barry Larkin was clearly the best SS in the National League from an offensive or overall perspective and the fans were still voting Ozzie as the starter year after year. No way to validate that if they weren't considering defense.

When Ozzie played, he had the general reputation as one of the greatest defensive shortstops ever. Same with Brooks Robinson as a 3B. People/voters hear that, and even if they've only seen occasional highlights of their defensive skills, they're voting for them on "best ever" reputation alone. Not necessarily because of a personally observed appreciation of their defensive abilities (aside from the 1970 WS highlights for BR).

Brooks Robinson as the undisputed 'best ever' defensive 3B is such bullshit. ****** me off.

He was without a doubt one of the best, I don't dispute that.

But a couple of comments here -

First of all, he wasn't any better than Mike Schmidt.

Second of all, once Greg Nettles started playing full time, he wasn't even the best defensive third baseman in the AL. The 17 straight GGs (or whatever it was) was all built on reputation. Nettles should have had a few of those.

GG awards have always been bullshit.

Rafael Palmeiro won the AL GG for 1B in 1999. He played 28 games in the field that season.

Posted by tecwrg on 7/9/2016 7:20:00 PM (view original):
GG awards have always been bullshit.

Rafael Palmeiro won the AL GG for 1B in 1999. He played 28 games in the field that season.

For real. How many did Jeter "win"?

I don't know. Why don't you look it up?

Posted by tecwrg on 7/9/2016 10:01:00 PM (view original):
I don't know. Why don't you look it up?

I don't think we need to, the fact that Jeter has more than one confirms your theory. You are right, GG awards are bullshit.

Thanks for your confirmation.