Okay I've got some more: Dave McNally, Harry Becheen, Lefty Williams, Sam McDowell, Johnny Vander Meer, and Bob Veale who were better than Pettitte and at least as good as Glavine and Newhouser.

I would take Koufax. Grove, and Carlton above Randy Johnson. Actually, probably Warren Spahn too if you look at his body of work. Grove, Carlton, and Spahn all did it for a long time, but at his peak, no one was better than Koufax. I was born in 1952 and grew up near St. Louis. Whenever the Dodgers played the Cardinals, Koufax pitced against Gibson. I watched then every chance I got and I knew when I was seeing it then I was seeing two of the best pitchers ever. It seemed to be always 1-0 or 2-1. In addition there may have been better hitters around then than any other time in baseball history.

*Brecheen, sorry my typing skills aren't good.

Randy Johnson is easily better than Koufax, Spahn, and Carlton

"Easily" better than Koufax?

Career        IP        SO       ERA      ERA+     Whip    WAR
Koufax       2324   2396     2.76      131       1.106     53
Johnson    4135   4875     3.29      135       1.171    104


Best 3 seasons    IP      SO      ERA     ERA+    Whip   WAR
Koufax                  881    922     1.85     176       0.92      26
Johnson               758    1053   2.48     188       1.052    29

And if you stretch it out to best 5 or 7 years overall, Johnson runs away with it. To argue that Koufax was better than Johnson, you have to ignore the fact that the run scoring environment in the late 1950's and early 1960's was significantly different than it was in the 1990's and 2000's. And then you have to ignore the fact that Johnson doubled up on Koufax's IP.

By your own data you produced Koufax is better. And yes there were better hitters overall in the 50s and 60s.

Nope. Take a look at league average ERA in 1964 and compare that to league average ERA in 2001.

You know, there are several different ways you can total up stats to get them to say what you want them to say.  I'll admit, I don't have time to do it and they may in fact show that R.J. is in fact better.  I was just wondering if instead of taking the three best years of each and instead taking the best five-year stretch of each:  obviously Koufax would be from 1962-1966.  Would any of R.J.'s five-year periods come close or surpass S.K.'s?

I didn't actually use Johnson's three best years, I used his three best chronological years. If you line up Johnson's best season with Koufax's, 2nd best, 3rd best, and so on, Johnson's lead increases as you go further.

While I certainly know that there's no "scientifically proven" method to computing WIS's salary calculations, I thought I'd throw this out there as a means to add to the discussion:

Koufax's Best Five Seasons = $53,523,586
Johnson's Best Five Seasons = $46,982,970

Koufax's Best Six-Year Span (61-66) = 60,002,568
Johnson's Best Six-Year Span (97-02) = 50,130,174

Johnson certainly had the longevity going for him as far as being a great picture for a longer period of time while Koufax took a while to figure things out and then had to call it quits due to physical pain.  I'd be interested to hear from guys like Tim McCarver, Mike Shannon, Hank Aaron and others who've seen both pitch to get their opinions on the matter.

I would like to hear those opinions also juice. I'm 62 years old so I have seen many of these guys pitch. In my mind the only guy who came close to Koufax at their best was Carlton. The reason Johnson had higher ERAs than most of these others is also why he had a higher HR/IP. Johnson didn't have the command that some of these other guys had and he was more prone to sometimes grooving pitches because of it.

I guess you could debate who had the best peak between the two, but Randy Johnson pitched 1800 more innings at somewhat similar statistics, in a hitter's era, in a hitter's park. While Koufax was in a pitcher's era in the pitcher's paradise of Dodger Stadium.

Great points as well.

For what it's worth I heard Tim Kukjian say this morning on ESPN that he considers Randy Johnson the 3rd greatest lefty of all time, behind Lefty Grove and Warren Spahn.

I saw Koufax, Johnson, Spahn and Carlton pitch, several times each. I voted for Koufax, but if you insist on a long career, then it's Johnson (with Spahn and Carlton next in line).

"Greatest" doesn't mean longest to me. Koufax and Johnson both started slow, but for one five-year span Koufax was consistently untouchable.

The talent was more concentrated in the 1960s and pitchers didn't count on turning the game over to the bullpen for the late innings. Koufax had 137 complete games in a third fewer games pitched than Johnson, 137-100.

Of course, if you count birds killed in flight, then it's Johnson all by himself.