So, basically, you're saying there is no solution?   That children in that situation are doomed to repeat the mistakes of their parents?

If that's the case, we need a more radical solution.  

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/23/2014 9:56:00 AM (view original):
So, basically, you're saying there is no solution?   That children in that situation are doomed to repeat the mistakes of their parents?

If that's the case, we need a more radical solution.  

I'm not saying that.  But looking the other way and saying "Stop doing the thing that's the problem" isn't really a solution.

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/23/2014 9:49:00 AM (view original):
Your parents suck at raising you because they didn't have great parents or a great education. They lived in a community where they were mistreated, told they weren't as good as others, that they were different. Those experiences they had are essentially passed down to you. And so on and so forth. Are there people who "break away" and figure it out? Yea, but it doesn't happen enough.

So saying "be a better parent" isn't a solution to the problem of "you're a bad parent." The leader likely doesn't exist because the majority of the black population is in the situation that is the problem right now.

This looks like you're saying there is no solution and that you're likely to commit the same mistakes as your parents.

What do you read it as?

Posted by moy23 on 12/23/2014 9:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/23/2014 9:10:00 AM (view original):
So your solution is telling people to "be a better parent" or "move." OK. I think we need more than that.

And yea, I haven't really blamed PDs on a whole, I think the majority do a great job, and I praised the NYPD earlier in this thread. Ferguson appears to have a ****** up PD. 

The start of the solution imo is better black leadership. People who aren't always looking to the past for excuses, but are showing people the path forward. Community, Education, Work Ethic, Parenting, Accountability, etc

It's ironic that the person who best fits this description is Bill Cosby, who has turned out to be a fraud himself.

The solution is accountability.  The solution is to not create excuses for the behavior by turning an incident involving a police officer and a criminal resisting arrest into an incident involving a black man and a white man in order to fit some political motive or momentarily appease white guilt.  Has there really never been an incident of a black police officer shooting a white criminal without being charged for it?  Because I'm sure I've never seen it dominate the headlines.  If you believe everyone is equal, hold everyone to the same standard.  If you believe that you want everyone to be equal but certain people need your help and guidance to get there because they're incapable of doing it on their own, you have a personal issue.  God-complex, plantation mentality, whatever you want to call it.

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/23/2014 9:46:00 AM (view original):

Posted by moy23 on 12/23/2014 9:44:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/23/2014 9:10:00 AM (view original):
So your solution is telling people to "be a better parent" or "move." OK. I think we need more than that.

And yea, I haven't really blamed PDs on a whole, I think the majority do a great job, and I praised the NYPD earlier in this thread. Ferguson appears to have a ****** up PD. 

The start of the solution imo is better black leadership. People who aren't always looking to the past for excuses, but are showing people the path forward. Community, Education, Work Ethic, Parenting, Accountability, etc

OK. How do you do that? 

"Be a better parent"

"Be a better leader"

Great ideas, but the problem is that these don't exist enough. Fixing the problem by saying "fix the problem" isn't a fix.

There needs to be an acknowledgement that these are part of the problem, and are one place (out of many) to start.  Dismissing them as "that's not nearly enough" doesn't really help the situation.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/23/2014 10:17:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/23/2014 9:49:00 AM (view original):
Your parents suck at raising you because they didn't have great parents or a great education. They lived in a community where they were mistreated, told they weren't as good as others, that they were different. Those experiences they had are essentially passed down to you. And so on and so forth. Are there people who "break away" and figure it out? Yea, but it doesn't happen enough.

So saying "be a better parent" isn't a solution to the problem of "you're a bad parent." The leader likely doesn't exist because the majority of the black population is in the situation that is the problem right now.

This looks like you're saying there is no solution and that you're likely to commit the same mistakes as your parents.

What do you read it as?

I'm saying someone is likely to do similar things their parents have done. People often act like their parents. Saying "stop doing that" isn't really a solution. 

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/23/2014 10:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/23/2014 10:17:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/23/2014 9:49:00 AM (view original):
Your parents suck at raising you because they didn't have great parents or a great education. They lived in a community where they were mistreated, told they weren't as good as others, that they were different. Those experiences they had are essentially passed down to you. And so on and so forth. Are there people who "break away" and figure it out? Yea, but it doesn't happen enough.

So saying "be a better parent" isn't a solution to the problem of "you're a bad parent." The leader likely doesn't exist because the majority of the black population is in the situation that is the problem right now.

This looks like you're saying there is no solution and that you're likely to commit the same mistakes as your parents.

What do you read it as?

I'm saying someone is likely to do similar things their parents have done. People often act like their parents. Saying "stop doing that" isn't really a solution. 

Both sides need to make some changes in the way they think and the way they act.  The blacks can only do what is in their control, which would be to change their "victim" mentality.  Being a better parent, making better choices, being accountable for your own actions is a start.

Seems like you think the the problem is entirely of whitey's making and is therefore entirely up to whitey to fix.

Posted by examinerebb on 12/23/2014 10:37:00 AM (view original):
The solution is accountability.  The solution is to not create excuses for the behavior by turning an incident involving a police officer and a criminal resisting arrest into an incident involving a black man and a white man in order to fit some political motive or momentarily appease white guilt.  Has there really never been an incident of a black police officer shooting a white criminal without being charged for it?  Because I'm sure I've never seen it dominate the headlines.  If you believe everyone is equal, hold everyone to the same standard.  If you believe that you want everyone to be equal but certain people need your help and guidance to get there because they're incapable of doing it on their own, you have a personal issue.  God-complex, plantation mentality, whatever you want to call it.

"The solution is to not create excuses for the behavior by turning an incident involving a police officer and a criminal resisting arrest into an incident involving a black man and a white man in order to fit some political motive or momentarily appease white guilt."

The "tools" are called "education" right now.   As you know, you can't force education on anyone.    So what's the solution?     Kid A wants to learn.   Kid A is mocked for this.   Kid A is in a disruptive classroom where learning is difficult.    What's the solution?

Posted by tecwrg on 12/23/2014 10:43:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/23/2014 10:38:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/23/2014 10:17:00 AM (view original):

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/23/2014 9:49:00 AM (view original):
Your parents suck at raising you because they didn't have great parents or a great education. They lived in a community where they were mistreated, told they weren't as good as others, that they were different. Those experiences they had are essentially passed down to you. And so on and so forth. Are there people who "break away" and figure it out? Yea, but it doesn't happen enough.

So saying "be a better parent" isn't a solution to the problem of "you're a bad parent." The leader likely doesn't exist because the majority of the black population is in the situation that is the problem right now.

This looks like you're saying there is no solution and that you're likely to commit the same mistakes as your parents.

What do you read it as?

I'm saying someone is likely to do similar things their parents have done. People often act like their parents. Saying "stop doing that" isn't really a solution. 

Both sides need to make some changes in the way they think and the way they act.  The blacks can only do what is in their control, which would be to change their "victim" mentality.  Being a better parent, making better choices, being accountable for your own actions is a start.

Seems like you think the the problem is entirely of whitey's making and is therefore entirely up to whitey to fix.

Well...the problem is "whitey's making." It started a few hundred years ago, and society is dealing with the aftermath. 

I agree both sides need to make some changes. Finding better leaders would help - maybe that's something for Obama after he's done with politics, I don't know. Parents of black children do need to show their children the importance of education, and instill confidence in them that they can be successful in life. But if they DON'T believe that, they aren't going to. How do we help this situation? Telling parents "stop thinking that way" isn't a solution.

Better teachers? Many teachers in poor neighborhoods are either young rookie teachers, who are looking to get into better neighborhoods so that their job is easier. Maybe invest more money in education, to pay these teachers better so that they're more likely to be convinced to stay? Or maybe make a focus on recruiting great black teachers, so that black children have better role models? I think a large part of the answer is in education. Blacks in poor neighborhoods aren't getting the best education, partially because these children don't want it, and partially because educators don't want to teach children who are difficult and don't want it. Fixing this issue, I believe, would go a long way.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/23/2014 10:52:00 AM (view original):
The "tools" are called "education" right now.   As you know, you can't force education on anyone.    So what's the solution?     Kid A wants to learn.   Kid A is mocked for this.   Kid A is in a disruptive classroom where learning is difficult.    What's the solution?

Kinda beat me to it. But yea.

Posted by burnsy483 on 12/23/2014 11:02:00 AM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/23/2014 10:52:00 AM (view original):
The "tools" are called "education" right now.   As you know, you can't force education on anyone.    So what's the solution?     Kid A wants to learn.   Kid A is mocked for this.   Kid A is in a disruptive classroom where learning is difficult.    What's the solution?

Kinda beat me to it. But yea.

I completely agree that the solution to this (and to most problems) is education.  Again, the solution to this specific issue is accountability.  The teacher has the power to change the culture within that classroom.

We live in a culture where accountability has fallen by the wayside.  Look around you and you'll see it everywhere.  Co-workers who underperform but keep their jobs, because HR is afraid of a lawsuit if they are fired.  Teachers who underperform but keep their jobs because many believe they're asked to do an awful lot for not a lot of pay.  Remove the excuses and raise the expectations.  There are plenty of hard-working, competent people in the world to hold down those jobs.  And plenty of others who could/might be if that was the expectation.

So here are the solutions:
1.  Stop "at risk" people from having children
2.  Take children away from "at risk" families
3.  Mandatory military service

1 and 2 will never happen.   Al Sharpton is already screaming racism.   But here's what happens with 2 years mandatory military service.   1.  Education.  If you didn't graduate HS, you can get a GED.   If you did graduate HS and hope to further your education, you can take accredited college courses.   If you did graduate HS and have no desire to further your education, you can be taught a trade.    2.  Discipline and respect.  You will do what you're told.  And, with any luck, that lesson will help you be a better citizen on the outside.   3.  Equality.  You will find that it does exist amongst your peers regardless of skin color.   4.  A sense of purpose.  You are doing something for your country.  Something bigger than you and your needs.   5.  Removal from the enviroment that keeps you hopeless.  You've been removed from the mistakes of your parents. 

Finally, the people most likely to get into/cause trouble, are removed from the equation.   18-20 y/o men just don't give a ****.  Take them off the street and crime goes down.

Teachers do not wield the same authority as a drill sargeant.    And, FWIW, without armed guards in some of the worst schools, teachers hold little power.    Seems there's always some story of a teacher getting his/her *** kicked by a student.