Posted by examinerebb on 12/5/2014 3:57:00 PM (view original):
Agreed. My argument was more in regards to Biggio, where I can't remember EVER thinking that he was the best 2B in baseball.

I think Biggio was probably the best 2b in baseball once or twice. He was at least in the running several years where he won both the silver slugger and the gold glove.

Pedro
Johnson
Smoltz
Maybe Schilling
Bagwell
Biggio
Piazza

off the top of my head.

Let the "steroid guys" in after they die.

So don't elect anyone who played from the last 80s to the mid 2000s?

Posted by masterdebate on 12/5/2014 4:21:00 PM (view original):
Pedro
Johnson
Smoltz
Maybe Schilling
Bagwell
Biggio
Piazza

off the top of my head.

Let the "steroid guys" in after they die.

Aren't all of them "steroid guys" also?

Buster Olney not even sending in a ballot protesting the broken process. Claims he doesn't have room on his ballot for Mussina, Schilling, and Raines.

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2014 4:23:00 PM (view original):
So don't elect anyone who played from the last 80s to the mid 2000s?

Nope, just the guys we have evidence that they used. They players in the MItchell Report, Clemens, Pettitte, Glenallen Hill etc. or from other sources, BALCO (Bonds), Biogenesis (A-Rod, Braun etc) or confessions (Canseco, Caminiti etc).

Posted by bad_luck on 12/5/2014 4:26:00 PM (view original):

Posted by masterdebate on 12/5/2014 4:21:00 PM (view original):
Pedro
Johnson
Smoltz
Maybe Schilling
Bagwell
Biggio
Piazza

off the top of my head.

Let the "steroid guys" in after they die.

Aren't all of them "steroid guys" also?

By what evidence? There's never been serious evidence linking any of them to PEDs.

Posted by masterdebate on 12/5/2014 4:36:00 PM (view original):

Posted by MikeT23 on 12/5/2014 4:23:00 PM (view original):
So don't elect anyone who played from the last 80s to the mid 2000s?

Nope, just the guys we have evidence that they used. They players in the MItchell Report, Clemens, Pettitte, Glenallen Hill etc. or from other sources, BALCO (Bonds), Biogenesis (A-Rod, Braun etc) or confessions (Canseco, Caminiti etc).

I think we have to agree to disagree on this one. The Hall of Fame is meaningless without the best players. Guys like Clemens, Bonds, and Arod are most certainly among the inner circle, top-tier, elite players of all time. Keeping them out does more harm than letting them in.

I said let them in, after they're dead. it's the only compromise I can think of that lets them in but still punishes them in some way. I'd also have no problem lifting the lifetime bans on guys like Joe Jackson, since, well, they're dead.

Letting them in while alive also is harmful because it allows current players to see that we don't really punish former players who used, so there's nothing to stop them as well. We've already seen that both teams and players are not really bothered by the suspensions (Peralta got paid quite handsomely after coming off a 50 game suspension, Melky has done well for himself, Cruz just inked a big deal). So no, keep them out while they are alive. So Ken Caminiti would be eligible, if he was good enough. Hint, he's not.

Posted by masterdebate on 12/5/2014 4:49:00 PM (view original):
Letting them in while alive also is harmful because it allows current players to see that we don't really punish former players who used, so there's nothing to stop them as well. We've already seen that both teams and players are not really bothered by the suspensions (Peralta got paid quite handsomely after coming off a 50 game suspension, Melky has done well for himself, Cruz just inked a big deal). So no, keep them out while they are alive. So Ken Caminiti would be eligible, if he was good enough. Hint, he's not.

I'm not too worried about that aspect of it. We already allowed Hank Aaron in even though he admitted to using PEDs. We can let in guys we suspect of using PEDs.

Posted by masterdebate on 12/5/2014 4:49:00 PM (view original):
Letting them in while alive also is harmful because it allows current players to see that we don't really punish former players who used, so there's nothing to stop them as well. We've already seen that both teams and players are not really bothered by the suspensions (Peralta got paid quite handsomely after coming off a 50 game suspension, Melky has done well for himself, Cruz just inked a big deal). So no, keep them out while they are alive. So Ken Caminiti would be eligible, if he was good enough. Hint, he's not.

Also, come on.  Do you think through anything you post?  You honestly think guys during their careers care about the HOF relative to earnings potential?

"Ok, so I could probably make an extra $20 million if I use PEDs, but I might be less likely to make it into the HOF.  Better not use those PEDs."

Wow. I forgot how quick the insults and vitriol fly here. Keep forgetting why this place is worse than Facebook for opinions.