Posted by nachopuzzle on 4/25/2014 11:22:00 PM (view original):

Posted by gillispie1 on 4/25/2014 10:30:00 PM (view original):

Posted by brianxavier on 4/25/2014 2:47:00 PM (view original):

I've often read that uptempo will not fatigue the other team, only your own.  If may increase their fouls due to increased number of possessions though. 

i am pretty sure this isn't true. its said, i've even said that seble said it, but i don't think its true.

I'm almost positive I remember a developer chat a while ago where the admins said that the number of overall possessions while a player was on the court is what determines/affects a players fatigue level...however, I've since searched for that specific quote but can't track it down, possibly because the log of some chats no longer exist for some reason.

From my own personal observations, I'm convinced that each team's tempo has a greater affect on it's own players fatigue than does the tempo settings of their opponents.

If this is accurate, it's great to know. I've often went up-tempo on teams with only 5-6 solid players, hoping to force them into their bench. It has SEEMED to work at times, but at other times, seemed to have almost no effect.

Posted by tcplotts on 4/25/2014 11:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 11:05:00 PM (view original):
So you're saying seble lied then? Why do you believe it's untrue if seble said it? You must believe he lied, in which case one has to wonder what other misinformation has been spread.

not to be a jerk, but there's a discussion going on here. you seem to like hijacking threads. can you not please?

I'm just trying to establish a factual baseline here. The implication of what gillispie said makes it a virtual certainty that someone either lied or was misled at some point in the past. Having such important information more readily available would prevent leaving such things to this kind of 'he said, she said" long and dance.

That's not hijacking, that's participating in discussion.

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 11:56:00 PM (view original):

Posted by tcplotts on 4/25/2014 11:21:00 PM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 11:05:00 PM (view original):
So you're saying seble lied then? Why do you believe it's untrue if seble said it? You must believe he lied, in which case one has to wonder what other misinformation has been spread.

not to be a jerk, but there's a discussion going on here. you seem to like hijacking threads. can you not please?

I'm just trying to establish a factual baseline here. The implication of what gillispie said makes it a virtual certainty that someone either lied or was misled at some point in the past. Having such important information more readily available would prevent leaving such things to this kind of 'he said, she said" long and dance.

That's not hijacking, that's participating in discussion.

Stop hijacking useful threads.

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 11:05:00 PM (view original):
So you're saying seble lied then? Why do you believe it's untrue if seble said it? You must believe he lied, in which case one has to wonder what other misinformation has been spread.

no, i think he shared what he thought what was true, when it wasn't, or at least, his context/frame of reference differs from our own. that is not lying. lying is intentionally portraying what you know not to be true. seble was not doing that. however, i still think he was incorrect. get the difference?

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/26/2014 12:33:00 AM (view original):
You're hijacking it by falsely accusing me of doing it.

I'm participating in discussion. gillispie said that he doesn't believe something that seble said is true. Given that it has been said that this is the primary source of information for players, it should be obvious that it is important that the information disseminated here be consistent and accurate to the maximum extent possible. If people are giving different information, that's where inaccuracies and discrepancies that mislead new players happen.

huh?? seble is the primary source of information for players? no... just, no. most of us are firm in our belief that if there is a dispute between what admin says and what a pool of veterans say, you go with the pool of veterans. they are more likely to share your frame of reference. anyone who puts the comments of seble over *a mass veteran consensus* simply has not had enough experience with how things work. im not saying my opinion alone trumps seble - i'd never suggest that. but if 20 other veterans agree with me and not with seble, you should take the word of the 21 of us over seble, and its not even close. no offense to seble. the frame of reference of a developer and a player is massively different which contributes here, and which also contributes to why you should believe the veterans, as their frame is a player frame of reference, which is more similar to your own. it also depends on the question itself. there are definitely things i will doubt myself over, severely, if seble says otherwise. others, i read seble's comment and immediately discard it as the comment of someone who failed to grasp the context of the original question. its all about the situation. sorry this game is not as straightforward and black and white as you would like, but, that is just the reality - you can take it or leave it - but it remains the reality of the situation either way.

fcp tires out both teams.
Uptempo add possessions to the game.

More possessions= more tiredness.


Period.

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/26/2014 12:33:00 AM (view original):
You're hijacking it by falsely accusing me of doing it.

I'm participating in discussion. gillispie said that he doesn't believe something that seble said is true. Given that it has been said that this is the primary source of information for players, it should be obvious that it is important that the information disseminated here be consistent and accurate to the maximum extent possible. If people are giving different information, that's where inaccuracies and discrepancies that mislead new players happen.

No, no one lied ... your freaking problem is that you want to throw accusations around at every opportunity, using personal attacks, etc.  Please learn to be polite and stop hurling accusations at every turn.

Someone may be MISTAKEN, or taken out of context ... while trying to give a truthful answer.

For example,  to the question of if uptempo impacts both you and your opponents fatigue ... the answer that I have observed (having played almost 5500 games of HD) is:

1.  Your tempo setting has a big impact on your team's fatigue ... and it has some impact, though less, on your opponent's fatigue.

That would seem to indicate that there is some kind of "additional" or "added" or "additive" impact to the fatigue of your  team based on the tempo you play ... and it also indicates that there is NO "additional" or "added" or "additive" impact to your opponent based on the tempo you play.

But also having an impact on fatigue is the number of plays you play on offense and the number of plays you play on defense ... and if a team plays uptempo, their opponent plays more plays on both offense and defense (as there is less time between plays, and more plays being run).

So, both statements are true ... there is NO "code programmed" impact on your team's fatigue based on your opponent's tempo.  The programmer would look though the code and say ... there is an impact on your team and not your opponent based on the tempo you choose.  This is because there is are lines of code that add that impact to the team based on its  tempo setting. 

Experienced players though, also observe that there is a noticeable, but smaller, impact on the opponent based on running more plays.

That means both statements are correct and the real issue is what is meant by "an effect on" fatigue by tempo.

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/25/2014 10:34:00 PM (view original):
So are you saying you lied or that the information the coaches have isn't accurate and maybe there should be a more comprehensive and reliable source of information than user hearsay?

uncertainty here depends mostly on exactly how the question is phrased and what is meant by it - especially on tempo questions.  More possessions have some effects.  Fatigue other than more possessions may have other effects.  Those have long been confounding.  I have reached some conclusions based on experience.  My best advice is to experiment and draw your own conclusions.

Posted by stewdog on 4/28/2014 10:22:00 AM (view original):
fcp tires out both teams.
Uptempo add possessions to the game.

More possessions= more tiredness.


Period.

I agree on this: 

"Uptempo adds possessions to the game.
More possessions = more tiredness."

It really is this simple w/r/t tempo

The first statement about FCP tiring out both teams is interesting.  I know it tires out mine if I'm running it, guess I never noticed if it tires out the other team even if they aren't running it.  I'll have to be more observant on this part.  Usually when I run FCP, I'm going uptempo or running it with FB offense, so it makes it tougher to isolate I guess.  It makes intuitive sense, though. 

I used to try slowdown but it never seemed to work as well as going with normal tempo (or uptempo if your team is really good), which makes sense to me because the longer you hold the ball, the more opportunity they have to trap and steal.

Other than that, higher distro to Spd/Ath/BH/Pass to reduce TOs and hope those guys can score.

Posted by jdno on 4/28/2014 11:53:00 AM (view original):

Posted by stewdog on 4/28/2014 10:22:00 AM (view original):
fcp tires out both teams.
Uptempo add possessions to the game.

More possessions= more tiredness.


Period.

I agree on this: 

"Uptempo adds possessions to the game.
More possessions = more tiredness."

It really is this simple w/r/t tempo

The first statement about FCP tiring out both teams is interesting.  I know it tires out mine if I'm running it, guess I never noticed if it tires out the other team even if they aren't running it.  I'll have to be more observant on this part.  Usually when I run FCP, I'm going uptempo or running it with FB offense, so it makes it tougher to isolate I guess.  It makes intuitive sense, though. 

FCP does tire out your opponents, i believe this is only because there are more possessions in FCP games, so its an indirect effect.

Posted by hughesjr on 4/28/2014 11:26:00 AM (view original):

Posted by ettaexpress on 4/26/2014 12:33:00 AM (view original):
You're hijacking it by falsely accusing me of doing it.

I'm participating in discussion. gillispie said that he doesn't believe something that seble said is true. Given that it has been said that this is the primary source of information for players, it should be obvious that it is important that the information disseminated here be consistent and accurate to the maximum extent possible. If people are giving different information, that's where inaccuracies and discrepancies that mislead new players happen.

No, no one lied ... your freaking problem is that you want to throw accusations around at every opportunity, using personal attacks, etc.  Please learn to be polite and stop hurling accusations at every turn.

Someone may be MISTAKEN, or taken out of context ... while trying to give a truthful answer.

For example,  to the question of if uptempo impacts both you and your opponents fatigue ... the answer that I have observed (having played almost 5500 games of HD) is:

1.  Your tempo setting has a big impact on your team's fatigue ... and it has some impact, though less, on your opponent's fatigue.

That would seem to indicate that there is some kind of "additional" or "added" or "additive" impact to the fatigue of your  team based on the tempo you play ... and it also indicates that there is NO "additional" or "added" or "additive" impact to your opponent based on the tempo you play.

But also having an impact on fatigue is the number of plays you play on offense and the number of plays you play on defense ... and if a team plays uptempo, their opponent plays more plays on both offense and defense (as there is less time between plays, and more plays being run).

So, both statements are true ... there is NO "code programmed" impact on your team's fatigue based on your opponent's tempo.  The programmer would look though the code and say ... there is an impact on your team and not your opponent based on the tempo you choose.  This is because there is are lines of code that add that impact to the team based on its  tempo setting. 

Experienced players though, also observe that there is a noticeable, but smaller, impact on the opponent based on running more plays.

That means both statements are correct and the real issue is what is meant by "an effect on" fatigue by tempo.

this is quality analysis right here... the discussion/controversy about direct and indirect impacts of fatigue is ancient, and the differences in context between admin statements on fatigue and user interpretations of those statements are infamous for their enormity. programming is not simple, when you change one thing, there are frequently indirect effects out the wazoo, this is fundamentally what creates most of the software bugs over the history of man... its not surprising at all, as a programmer, that these kind of context issues exist. nobody is lying, but admins could absolutely do a better job trying to relate to users and take a lead in bridging the gap, instead of leaving it to us to sort out. there is fault on both sides though, HD users like to hold up admin statements like they are moses's tablets inscribed by god himself. its just a tough situation to navigate, it doesn't really mean anyone is doing anything deliberately harmful or trying to mislead others. it just means its tough and folks need to make an effort not to rush to judgement.

Posted by jcf16 on 4/29/2014 4:09:00 PM (view original):
I used to try slowdown but it never seemed to work as well as going with normal tempo (or uptempo if your team is really good), which makes sense to me because the longer you hold the ball, the more opportunity they have to trap and steal.

Other than that, higher distro to Spd/Ath/BH/Pass to reduce TOs and hope those guys can score.

This is something that a lot of games, not just this one, have a tough time modeling. Real world, low tempo teams usually do better at limiting turnovers because they're usually not making more high-risk passes, just more low-risk ones. But usually the sims see it as you do -- more passes = more risk.

It's a common problem.