7/2/2013 9:08 PM
Posted by bhazlewood on 7/2/2013 4:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by starfinder77 on 7/2/2013 3:43:00 PM (view original):
I'm glad u have the faith in this game. All we needed was changes to v2, not this monstrosity. I would hope that WIS is smart enough to realize that they can attract more customers by offering the choice of both V2 and V3. Having to set ur starters twice is theorist sign that V3 is a turd disguised as a diamond!.
Waiting to see the final product before making a decision about whether or not I will play it is not the same has having faith in the game.  I hope that point isn't too subtle for you.

2.0 is crap.  Besides the absurd randomness of unexplainable results, one of the biggest complaints about it when it was launched was that it was dumbed down.  If you don't like the added complexity of position roles, advanced game planning, etc, in the new version, you can turn that off and play the game just like 2.0

Interface issues, like having to set starters on two different screens, are easily correctable, and have NOTHING to do with the very real problems of 3.0.  
Ok, so tell me why should I root for V3 basic, when there will be no separation between coaches using the advanced and those using the basic option? Will those that play the basic really stand a chance to win against those that play the advanced? Of course not, so coaches will leave and the worlds will b just as empty. They could have easily added that same option into v2, and it would have been so much easier to understand.

Here is a novel idea get a team, recruit well, build it up and you will b successful at V2. Yes there will be some head scratchers along the way, but the more you build up ur team they will be less. Coaches don't always seem to get that. I challenge any coach to throw out a game summary and I can break it down to why any given team lost. You do realize that sometimes really good teams have an off day, don't you?

Even the best do stumble from time to time. The problem is that most coaches really don't want to hear that so hence the engine is flawed.

7/2/2013 9:14 PM
See that's the problem Bhazlewood I don't think version 2 is without its problems that a bit of tweaking couldn't fix,but beta has unexplained results happening all the time,and all everyone does is say how v2 is so bad and has so many random outcomes and I just don't see it,I have lost to only a handful of teams that were completely overmatched on multiple teams over maybe 20 or 30 seasons but I lost to that many sims in one season in beta,its crap right now and you guys all know it,and if there is so much randomness in v2 why are the same team and coaches winning the majority of the time ,nobody ever answer that question? I wonder why lol,because v2 is not perfect and some tweaks and bells and whistle would be nice to make it better that's for sure but its not as bad as everyone makes it out to be and that's just the facts
7/2/2013 9:32 PM
I don't think ANYONE is arguing that the 3.0 engine is anywhere CLOSE to being ready for release.  So YES IT S WORSE RIGHT NOW THAN 2.0 when it comes to generating reasonable cause-and-effect results.

I would hazard a guess that all you guys that think the 2.0 engine just "needs a few tweaks" aren't programmers.  I haven't seen the code for GD, but as someone who has done and occasionally still does some programming, I know there's almost no such thing as "a few tweaks" unless you are talking about cosmetic changes only.
7/3/2013 12:12 AM (edited)
No I'm not a programmer. Since under V2, during the recruiting phase you can click on challenges and up comes exhibition and below it is non conf. So why can't they do that for depth chart and have a box come up off to the side with the different formations? This way you could set you depth chart for an formation u wanted.

Second and I realize we have had some changes from Norbert to oriole fan, and whoever else. Find me one coach that doesn't think the double setting of ur starters is a pain in the ***. Coaches have complained about it and something that's easily correctable hasn't been fixed.

But it does make V3, so much better to know where my DB is or my QB does a drop back or a roll out. Still doesn't answer my original question, why would any coach want to pay to play basic and have to compete with/against those that prefer advanced? U also realize the first time a coach has built up their team and is playing basic beats a coach using advanced (if possible), the crap starts all over, the engine is broken
7/3/2013 7:59 AM
Wait. Can we get back to what's important? I lost in the playoffs.
7/3/2013 9:56 AM
I actually like setting my starters in V3 better.  That way I can "start" my freshman RB and give him a few carries while letting my Sr get the majority of carries but not get the "start".  It takes like 2 minutes of my time but in the long term my FR RB gets a pretty good boost.  
7/3/2013 10:10 AM
Posted by cadelu on 7/3/2013 9:56:00 AM (view original):
I actually like setting my starters in V3 better.  That way I can "start" my freshman RB and give him a few carries while letting my Sr get the majority of carries but not get the "start".  It takes like 2 minutes of my time but in the long term my FR RB gets a pretty good boost.  
That's under the advanced, correct?
7/3/2013 12:16 PM

I'm using the "Advanced" interface, so all of what I'm saying here should be taken in that reference.
 

No I'm not a programmer. Since under V2, during the recruiting phase you can click on challenges and up comes exhibition and below it is non conf. So why can't they do that for depth chart and have a box come up off to the side with the different formations? This way you could set you depth chart for an formation u wanted.

 

You can already set depth charts for each formation.  In fact you can set multiple depth charts for each formation, using custom formations and the different position roles.  That may not be immediately intuitive, I'll grant you.  But I think it's ultimately simpler because you set the position roles depth charts in one place, and then, if you want, you can assign the position roles to the formations instead of having to set every player at every position.
 

 Second and I realize we have had some changes from Norbert to oriole fan, and whoever else. Find me one coach that doesn't think the double setting of ur starters is a pain in the ***. Coaches have complained about it and something that's easily correctable hasn't been fixed.
 

Unfortunately I don't get to set the priorities of the programmers :).  But at one point you have to decide whether you want them focusing on cosmetics or the game engine.  The whole point of this beta test is to get the game engine right first.  I think people have lost sight of that and instead have focused on things like setting your starters or depth charts or whatever.  All those things could be perfect, but if the engine can't simulate a football game properly, it's still a failure.
 

But it does make V3, so much better to know where my DB is or my QB does a drop back or a roll out. Still doesn't answer my original question, why would any coach want to pay to play basic and have to compete with/against those that prefer advanced? U also realize the first time a coach has built up their team and is playing basic beats a coach using advanced (if possible), the crap starts all over, the engine is broken
 

I can't tell if the first statement there is meant to be sarcastic or not - but I will say that improved play-by-play, if accurate, is supposed to help us understand what's going on under the hood - we'll never see the formulas used to determine results, but if we can see that most of the incompletions are due to poor throws from the QB, instead of dropped passes by the WR, we can at least intuit what things we need to look for in players.  As to the rest - I don't know that the advanced version gives you THAT much more control over the game, except with putting specific players on the field in specific situations.  But I'll ask this - why shouldn't a coach that is willing to put a little extra work in be rewarded? 

7/3/2013 12:51 PM
Posted by mr_mojo on 7/3/2013 7:59:00 AM (view original):
Wait. Can we get back to what's important? I lost in the playoffs.
LOL
7/3/2013 1:16 PM (edited)
Posted by bhazlewood on 7/3/2013 12:16:00 PM (view original):

I'm using the "Advanced" interface, so all of what I'm saying here should be taken in that reference.
 

No I'm not a programmer. Since under V2, during the recruiting phase you can click on challenges and up comes exhibition and below it is non conf. So why can't they do that for depth chart and have a box come up off to the side with the different formations? This way you could set you depth chart for an formation u wanted.

 

You can already set depth charts for each formation.  In fact you can set multiple depth charts for each formation, using custom formations and the different position roles.  That may not be immediately intuitive, I'll grant you.  But I think it's ultimately simpler because you set the position roles depth charts in one place, and then, if you want, you can assign the position roles to the formations instead of having to set every player at every position.
 

 Second and I realize we have had some changes from Norbert to oriole fan, and whoever else. Find me one coach that doesn't think the double setting of ur starters is a pain in the ***. Coaches have complained about it and something that's easily correctable hasn't been fixed.
 

Unfortunately I don't get to set the priorities of the programmers :).  But at one point you have to decide whether you want them focusing on cosmetics or the game engine.  The whole point of this beta test is to get the game engine right first.  I think people have lost sight of that and instead have focused on things like setting your starters or depth charts or whatever.  All those things could be perfect, but if the engine can't simulate a football game properly, it's still a failure.
 

But it does make V3, so much better to know where my DB is or my QB does a drop back or a roll out. Still doesn't answer my original question, why would any coach want to pay to play basic and have to compete with/against those that prefer advanced? U also realize the first time a coach has built up their team and is playing basic beats a coach using advanced (if possible), the crap starts all over, the engine is broken
 

I can't tell if the first statement there is meant to be sarcastic or not - but I will say that improved play-by-play, if accurate, is supposed to help us understand what's going on under the hood - we'll never see the formulas used to determine results, but if we can see that most of the incompletions are due to poor throws from the QB, instead of dropped passes by the WR, we can at least intuit what things we need to look for in players.  As to the rest - I don't know that the advanced version gives you THAT much more control over the game, except with putting specific players on the field in specific situations.  But I'll ask this - why shouldn't a coach that is willing to put a little extra work in be rewarded? 

In reference to ur last paragraph, coaches should be rewarded but not at the expense of another coaches decision to play at a lesser level or lesser settings.  I guess it also depends on ur definition of "little"  I've ran seasons in 4 of the beta worlds and it is still to time consuming on half this crap.  Bottom line is that each of us should be able to play this game and not to have crap forced down our throats or we should not be ostracized  or forced out because we don't enjoy or have the time to keep up with the pack.

And I was being sarcastic in that first line.
7/3/2013 1:25 PM
Posted by bhazlewood on 7/3/2013 12:16:00 PM (view original):

I'm using the "Advanced" interface, so all of what I'm saying here should be taken in that reference.
 

No I'm not a programmer. Since under V2, during the recruiting phase you can click on challenges and up comes exhibition and below it is non conf. So why can't they do that for depth chart and have a box come up off to the side with the different formations? This way you could set you depth chart for an formation u wanted.

 

You can already set depth charts for each formation.  In fact you can set multiple depth charts for each formation, using custom formations and the different position roles.  That may not be immediately intuitive, I'll grant you.  But I think it's ultimately simpler because you set the position roles depth charts in one place, and then, if you want, you can assign the position roles to the formations instead of having to set every player at every position.
 

 Second and I realize we have had some changes from Norbert to oriole fan, and whoever else. Find me one coach that doesn't think the double setting of ur starters is a pain in the ***. Coaches have complained about it and something that's easily correctable hasn't been fixed.
 

Unfortunately I don't get to set the priorities of the programmers :).  But at one point you have to decide whether you want them focusing on cosmetics or the game engine.  The whole point of this beta test is to get the game engine right first.  I think people have lost sight of that and instead have focused on things like setting your starters or depth charts or whatever.  All those things could be perfect, but if the engine can't simulate a football game properly, it's still a failure.
 

But it does make V3, so much better to know where my DB is or my QB does a drop back or a roll out. Still doesn't answer my original question, why would any coach want to pay to play basic and have to compete with/against those that prefer advanced? U also realize the first time a coach has built up their team and is playing basic beats a coach using advanced (if possible), the crap starts all over, the engine is broken
 

I can't tell if the first statement there is meant to be sarcastic or not - but I will say that improved play-by-play, if accurate, is supposed to help us understand what's going on under the hood - we'll never see the formulas used to determine results, but if we can see that most of the incompletions are due to poor throws from the QB, instead of dropped passes by the WR, we can at least intuit what things we need to look for in players.  As to the rest - I don't know that the advanced version gives you THAT much more control over the game, except with putting specific players on the field in specific situations.  But I'll ask this - why shouldn't a coach that is willing to put a little extra work in be rewarded? 

Bob, your last sentence cuts to the heart of the matter.  What I hear over and over and over is that it shouldn't be necessary to learn the nuances of the game.  Anyone should have a chance, however  poor their team or gameplan, to win because on one shining day, for one magical moment, their team - for no apparent reason - "played over their heads". I think that's absurd.  Knowledge and effort SHOULD be rewarded every time.  Putting in more time to understand the game and the engine SHOULD lead to better results every time.  

How many times under 1.0 did we see great teams taken over by less talented coaches only to become mediocre or worse because they didn't know how to recruit, couldn't judge talent, or poor gameplanning?  And how many times under 2.0 have we seen mediocre teams upset a good coach with talented players for no discernable reason?  I thought 3.0 was intended as a re-set, a way to make coach knowledge and effort matter again.  If it's not going to do that, it's redundant -- there's already a coin flip edition available....
7/3/2013 2:54 PM
Posted by starfinder77 on 7/3/2013 1:16:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bhazlewood on 7/3/2013 12:16:00 PM (view original):

I'm using the "Advanced" interface, so all of what I'm saying here should be taken in that reference.
 

No I'm not a programmer. Since under V2, during the recruiting phase you can click on challenges and up comes exhibition and below it is non conf. So why can't they do that for depth chart and have a box come up off to the side with the different formations? This way you could set you depth chart for an formation u wanted.

 

You can already set depth charts for each formation.  In fact you can set multiple depth charts for each formation, using custom formations and the different position roles.  That may not be immediately intuitive, I'll grant you.  But I think it's ultimately simpler because you set the position roles depth charts in one place, and then, if you want, you can assign the position roles to the formations instead of having to set every player at every position.
 

 Second and I realize we have had some changes from Norbert to oriole fan, and whoever else. Find me one coach that doesn't think the double setting of ur starters is a pain in the ***. Coaches have complained about it and something that's easily correctable hasn't been fixed.
 

Unfortunately I don't get to set the priorities of the programmers :).  But at one point you have to decide whether you want them focusing on cosmetics or the game engine.  The whole point of this beta test is to get the game engine right first.  I think people have lost sight of that and instead have focused on things like setting your starters or depth charts or whatever.  All those things could be perfect, but if the engine can't simulate a football game properly, it's still a failure.
 

But it does make V3, so much better to know where my DB is or my QB does a drop back or a roll out. Still doesn't answer my original question, why would any coach want to pay to play basic and have to compete with/against those that prefer advanced? U also realize the first time a coach has built up their team and is playing basic beats a coach using advanced (if possible), the crap starts all over, the engine is broken
 

I can't tell if the first statement there is meant to be sarcastic or not - but I will say that improved play-by-play, if accurate, is supposed to help us understand what's going on under the hood - we'll never see the formulas used to determine results, but if we can see that most of the incompletions are due to poor throws from the QB, instead of dropped passes by the WR, we can at least intuit what things we need to look for in players.  As to the rest - I don't know that the advanced version gives you THAT much more control over the game, except with putting specific players on the field in specific situations.  But I'll ask this - why shouldn't a coach that is willing to put a little extra work in be rewarded? 

In reference to ur last paragraph, coaches should be rewarded but not at the expense of another coaches decision to play at a lesser level or lesser settings.  I guess it also depends on ur definition of "little"  I've ran seasons in 4 of the beta worlds and it is still to time consuming on half this crap.  Bottom line is that each of us should be able to play this game and not to have crap forced down our throats or we should not be ostracized  or forced out because we don't enjoy or have the time to keep up with the pack.

And I was being sarcastic in that first line.
How do you reward a coach without hurting another?  This is a zero sum game, every win comes at the expense of another coach.  

In any case, I think your arguments at this time are misguided.  They need to get the engine operating properly.  That should be the only priority right now.  Everything else is lipstick on a pig.
7/3/2013 3:21 PM
Posted by slid64er on 7/3/2013 2:54:00 PM (view original):
Posted by starfinder77 on 7/3/2013 1:16:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bhazlewood on 7/3/2013 12:16:00 PM (view original):

I'm using the "Advanced" interface, so all of what I'm saying here should be taken in that reference.
 

No I'm not a programmer. Since under V2, during the recruiting phase you can click on challenges and up comes exhibition and below it is non conf. So why can't they do that for depth chart and have a box come up off to the side with the different formations? This way you could set you depth chart for an formation u wanted.

 

You can already set depth charts for each formation.  In fact you can set multiple depth charts for each formation, using custom formations and the different position roles.  That may not be immediately intuitive, I'll grant you.  But I think it's ultimately simpler because you set the position roles depth charts in one place, and then, if you want, you can assign the position roles to the formations instead of having to set every player at every position.
 

 Second and I realize we have had some changes from Norbert to oriole fan, and whoever else. Find me one coach that doesn't think the double setting of ur starters is a pain in the ***. Coaches have complained about it and something that's easily correctable hasn't been fixed.
 

Unfortunately I don't get to set the priorities of the programmers :).  But at one point you have to decide whether you want them focusing on cosmetics or the game engine.  The whole point of this beta test is to get the game engine right first.  I think people have lost sight of that and instead have focused on things like setting your starters or depth charts or whatever.  All those things could be perfect, but if the engine can't simulate a football game properly, it's still a failure.
 

But it does make V3, so much better to know where my DB is or my QB does a drop back or a roll out. Still doesn't answer my original question, why would any coach want to pay to play basic and have to compete with/against those that prefer advanced? U also realize the first time a coach has built up their team and is playing basic beats a coach using advanced (if possible), the crap starts all over, the engine is broken
 

I can't tell if the first statement there is meant to be sarcastic or not - but I will say that improved play-by-play, if accurate, is supposed to help us understand what's going on under the hood - we'll never see the formulas used to determine results, but if we can see that most of the incompletions are due to poor throws from the QB, instead of dropped passes by the WR, we can at least intuit what things we need to look for in players.  As to the rest - I don't know that the advanced version gives you THAT much more control over the game, except with putting specific players on the field in specific situations.  But I'll ask this - why shouldn't a coach that is willing to put a little extra work in be rewarded? 

In reference to ur last paragraph, coaches should be rewarded but not at the expense of another coaches decision to play at a lesser level or lesser settings.  I guess it also depends on ur definition of "little"  I've ran seasons in 4 of the beta worlds and it is still to time consuming on half this crap.  Bottom line is that each of us should be able to play this game and not to have crap forced down our throats or we should not be ostracized  or forced out because we don't enjoy or have the time to keep up with the pack.

And I was being sarcastic in that first line.
How do you reward a coach without hurting another?  This is a zero sum game, every win comes at the expense of another coach.  

In any case, I think your arguments at this time are misguided.  They need to get the engine operating properly.  That should be the only priority right now.  Everything else is lipstick on a pig.
While yes there will always be a winner and loser, everything has to be on a level playing field.  For the guys that want to dive in and understand all the nuances of advanced settings, then by all means thats great.  For those of us that are happy with the way things are, then that should be ok to.  The guys that are playing basic will not be able to compete with those playing advanced.

We're testing beta to no available.  Since they toned down passing, now it seems that the regular worlds have been effected as well.  We never get an update on how long they anticipate its going to be,  This testing process is the blind leading the blind.  My daughter is 11 and she will graduate high school before this thing is playable because all the "eternal optomists" will keep chiming in how "just give it a chance"

Not only should they be working on the engine, but also how the finished product will be in the future.
7/3/2013 3:34 PM
I'll chime in with my few thoughts. There should be no "basic" or "advanced". It does give the impression that we are playing different games. We should all be playing the same game and competing on the same level. As for "rewarding" coaches, only our efforts and our skill should be rewarded. This is one of the huge failings of 2.0. Coaches who have always failed to recruit and GP and set depth charts properly get "rewarded with crazy wins for no apparent reason.

Bottom line is the workings of the engine are the only thing that this testing should have been about. This has been a failing to do so.

7/3/2013 4:40 PM
Posted by jibe on 7/3/2013 3:34:00 PM (view original):
I'll chime in with my few thoughts. There should be no "basic" or "advanced". It does give the impression that we are playing different games. We should all be playing the same game and competing on the same level. As for "rewarding" coaches, only our efforts and our skill should be rewarded. This is one of the huge failings of 2.0. Coaches who have always failed to recruit and GP and set depth charts properly get "rewarded with crazy wins for no apparent reason.

Bottom line is the workings of the engine are the only thing that this testing should have been about. This has been a failing to do so.

+1. Especially on your last paragraph.
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