All Forums > Hoops Dynasty Basketball > Hoops Dynasty > Improving scholarship messages with no new effort
3/19/2013 4:11 PM
Posted by coach_billyg on 3/19/2013 4:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by girt25 on 3/19/2013 3:22:00 PM (view original):
I would definitely send a ticket and request an explanation.

billyg, considering credit is not supposed to kick in nearly that early. That would mean it kicked in the very first cycle, and that's not supposed to happen.
how do you figure that one? the message where he switched was the cycle of signings, was it not? so im not sure why it would have to kick in the very first cycle - and even if it did, how would that push them over?

it may be that our models of how considering credit works are different. but even if that is the case, im not sure im following you - the OP came on the 2nd cycle, the other team, the first cycle. 
this last thing is the important part. The OP was on the second cycle, and the other guy on the first. How could the OP get more considering credit if his initial offer wasn't in the lead? 
3/19/2013 4:29 PM
Posted by coach_billyg on 3/19/2013 4:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bow2dacowz on 3/19/2013 3:41:00 PM (view original):
if you dont put in more effort he will sign with the other school.  this happened to me recently.  customer service told me that it's a "misconception that scholarship messages actually mean you're ahead or behind". 

in other words, they don't want to figure out why their game has the occasional bug.
could you post the entire ticket? id be interested to read that one. 
Sure have at it.

2/26/2013 1:11 AM bow2dacowz
This was my last scholarship message on Jeffrey Shy:

It would be a dream to play for you at Washington St., I don't know why they make me wait to sign, but I guess that's what I have to do.

Jeffery Shy


This afternoon he signed with another team. Please explain why the last scholarship message I got was that I was ahead?
2/26/2013 10:16 AM Customer Support
David,

There's a misconception that certain messages mean you're ahead. The messages you get are based on the recruit's interest level in your school. In some cases (though rare), a recruit may have an extremely high interest level in more than one school. So the other school likely got a similar message as this one.

This is one of the weaknesses in the current recruiting system, but it's not an easy thing to fix without redoing the way recruiting works. We are planning on addressing the known weaknesses in the system at some point.
2/26/2013 2:42 PM bow2dacowz
come on so now you are denying that there are scholarship messages that mean you're ahead or behind?
2/26/2013 2:49 PM Customer Support
It depends on the situation. Probably 95% of the time, a message like this does mean you're in the lead. But like I said, there are situations where multiple teams have put a ton of effort into a player and he has extreme interest in more than one team.
2/26/2013 7:39 PM bow2dacowz
or the more likely explanation is that there is some sort of a bug, which is exactly what you told me the last time this happened.

in 130 seasons, assuming an avg class size of 3 i have probably successfully recruited close to 400 players, and probably another 200 unsuccessfully. In those 600 situations there are only 2 times that i get that message and the player doesn't come. i guess your explanation is that im just lucky that it didnt happen the other 28 times that i would expect if your 95% number was valid. 

if you can produce someone...even just 1 person... who plays that game frequently that can vouch that this scenario happens 5% of the time, i'll buy that i'm just lucky. until then i think you have your head in the sand and are just failing to acknowledge that there is a bug that you haven't been able to identify and have no idea how to fix and the best explanation you can come up with is to hope that we are stupid and believe that an ahead message doesn't actually mean you are ahead when that is clearly what scholarship messages are designed to do, per your game rules. 

it may not be important to you when it happens 1 time for every 300 recruits an average user interacts with\.  I suppose if I bought 299 individual seasons 1 season at a time and as a result you credited the 300th season in my account before you processed my payment and my payment bounced, it would be okay because it only happened once out of every 300 seasons?

 
2/26/2013 8:14 PM Customer Support
We're aware of how the game works, and you've already been given an accurate answer as to what happened. You were out-recruited in a competitive battle with a lot of money spent by both sides. This is the exact scenario where you can get the message and not have the player sign.
3/19/2013 4:42 PM
b2dc-- thanks for the ticket re-post.  This was the situation I was in-- over $100K went into this kid from the 2 schools combined.  If CS is correct here, it looks like the scholarship emails just kind of spaz out in a high-stakes battle. 

Which means that if
     (a) you're in a high-stakes battle, and
     (b) WotS says "struggling,"
then you can have no reliable clue where you are in the battle.

3/19/2013 4:49 PM
Posted by dedelman on 3/19/2013 4:42:00 PM (view original):
b2dc-- thanks for the ticket re-post.  This was the situation I was in-- over $100K went into this kid from the 2 schools combined.  If CS is correct here, it looks like the scholarship emails just kind of spaz out in a high-stakes battle. 

Which means that if
     (a) you're in a high-stakes battle, and
     (b) WotS says "struggling,"
then you can have no reliable clue where you are in the battle.

supposedly the first team listed in the "struggling' text in WOTS is the team that is ahead.  i didn't know that...of course i wouldn't have checked it anyway because i got a scholarship message saying i was ahead...which is supposed to mean you're actually ahead.
3/19/2013 6:06 PM
Posted by bow2dacowz on 3/19/2013 4:29:00 PM (view original):
Posted by coach_billyg on 3/19/2013 4:02:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bow2dacowz on 3/19/2013 3:41:00 PM (view original):
if you dont put in more effort he will sign with the other school.  this happened to me recently.  customer service told me that it's a "misconception that scholarship messages actually mean you're ahead or behind". 

in other words, they don't want to figure out why their game has the occasional bug.
could you post the entire ticket? id be interested to read that one. 
Sure have at it.

2/26/2013 1:11 AM bow2dacowz
This was my last scholarship message on Jeffrey Shy:

It would be a dream to play for you at Washington St., I don't know why they make me wait to sign, but I guess that's what I have to do.

Jeffery Shy


This afternoon he signed with another team. Please explain why the last scholarship message I got was that I was ahead?
2/26/2013 10:16 AM Customer Support
David,

There's a misconception that certain messages mean you're ahead. The messages you get are based on the recruit's interest level in your school. In some cases (though rare), a recruit may have an extremely high interest level in more than one school. So the other school likely got a similar message as this one.

This is one of the weaknesses in the current recruiting system, but it's not an easy thing to fix without redoing the way recruiting works. We are planning on addressing the known weaknesses in the system at some point.
2/26/2013 2:42 PM bow2dacowz
come on so now you are denying that there are scholarship messages that mean you're ahead or behind?
2/26/2013 2:49 PM Customer Support
It depends on the situation. Probably 95% of the time, a message like this does mean you're in the lead. But like I said, there are situations where multiple teams have put a ton of effort into a player and he has extreme interest in more than one team.
2/26/2013 7:39 PM bow2dacowz
or the more likely explanation is that there is some sort of a bug, which is exactly what you told me the last time this happened.

in 130 seasons, assuming an avg class size of 3 i have probably successfully recruited close to 400 players, and probably another 200 unsuccessfully. In those 600 situations there are only 2 times that i get that message and the player doesn't come. i guess your explanation is that im just lucky that it didnt happen the other 28 times that i would expect if your 95% number was valid. 

if you can produce someone...even just 1 person... who plays that game frequently that can vouch that this scenario happens 5% of the time, i'll buy that i'm just lucky. until then i think you have your head in the sand and are just failing to acknowledge that there is a bug that you haven't been able to identify and have no idea how to fix and the best explanation you can come up with is to hope that we are stupid and believe that an ahead message doesn't actually mean you are ahead when that is clearly what scholarship messages are designed to do, per your game rules. 

it may not be important to you when it happens 1 time for every 300 recruits an average user interacts with\.  I suppose if I bought 299 individual seasons 1 season at a time and as a result you credited the 300th season in my account before you processed my payment and my payment bounced, it would be okay because it only happened once out of every 300 seasons?

 
2/26/2013 8:14 PM Customer Support
We're aware of how the game works, and you've already been given an accurate answer as to what happened. You were out-recruited in a competitive battle with a lot of money spent by both sides. This is the exact scenario where you can get the message and not have the player sign.
its like they are too stupid to know the difference between a scholarship message and anything else. 

having been in a number of very large d1 battles, i think there are hundreds of us who can confirm that is not the case... if every 80K all in type battle had both guys getting those messages, we'd know (generally, neither, not both, gets that message!)

i was curious to see the ticket to see if there was something really to it, or just a low quality response - looks like the latter.
3/20/2013 12:12 AM (edited)
Posted by dedelman on 3/19/2013 4:42:00 PM (view original):
b2dc-- thanks for the ticket re-post.  This was the situation I was in-- over $100K went into this kid from the 2 schools combined.  If CS is correct here, it looks like the scholarship emails just kind of spaz out in a high-stakes battle. 

Which means that if
     (a) you're in a high-stakes battle, and
     (b) WotS says "struggling,"
then you can have no reliable clue where you are in the battle.

i just dont believe this is the case, there are too many big time battles happening every recruiting season, for this to happen with any sort of consistency. there could be a rare bug but its DEFINITELY not expected behavior, as CS implies. the odds are far higher the guy answering was confused.
3/19/2013 6:15 PM
to the guys who lost those big battles - how sure are you the other coach didnt spend more? girt said recently in a thread, you shouldnt go from winning to lost, in a single cycle, but thats the first ive heard of it - and i always thought (and feel like ive experienced but am not positive) you could go straight to lost, as long as you werent considered alone. if the guys signed any time but at the 11am day after signings/8am 2 days after signings, when ties are usually broken, i would think it would be due to the other coach spending more - but even at those times, it could go either way.
3/19/2013 6:16 PM
Posted by bow2dacowz on 3/19/2013 4:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dedelman on 3/19/2013 4:42:00 PM (view original):
b2dc-- thanks for the ticket re-post.  This was the situation I was in-- over $100K went into this kid from the 2 schools combined.  If CS is correct here, it looks like the scholarship emails just kind of spaz out in a high-stakes battle. 

Which means that if
     (a) you're in a high-stakes battle, and
     (b) WotS says "struggling,"
then you can have no reliable clue where you are in the battle.

supposedly the first team listed in the "struggling' text in WOTS is the team that is ahead.  i didn't know that...of course i wouldn't have checked it anyway because i got a scholarship message saying i was ahead...which is supposed to mean you're actually ahead.
supposedly the first team listed as struggling is leading? i never heard that one before, will have to keep an eye on it.
3/19/2013 6:22 PM
Posted by coach_billyg on 3/19/2013 6:16:00 PM (view original):
Posted by bow2dacowz on 3/19/2013 4:49:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dedelman on 3/19/2013 4:42:00 PM (view original):
b2dc-- thanks for the ticket re-post.  This was the situation I was in-- over $100K went into this kid from the 2 schools combined.  If CS is correct here, it looks like the scholarship emails just kind of spaz out in a high-stakes battle. 

Which means that if
     (a) you're in a high-stakes battle, and
     (b) WotS says "struggling,"
then you can have no reliable clue where you are in the battle.

supposedly the first team listed in the "struggling' text in WOTS is the team that is ahead.  i didn't know that...of course i wouldn't have checked it anyway because i got a scholarship message saying i was ahead...which is supposed to mean you're actually ahead.
supposedly the first team listed as struggling is leading? i never heard that one before, will have to keep an eye on it.
Neither had i until this situation happened...
3/19/2013 6:29 PM
Posted by wronoj on 3/19/2013 4:11:00 PM (view original):
Posted by coach_billyg on 3/19/2013 4:00:00 PM (view original):
Posted by girt25 on 3/19/2013 3:22:00 PM (view original):
I would definitely send a ticket and request an explanation.

billyg, considering credit is not supposed to kick in nearly that early. That would mean it kicked in the very first cycle, and that's not supposed to happen.
how do you figure that one? the message where he switched was the cycle of signings, was it not? so im not sure why it would have to kick in the very first cycle - and even if it did, how would that push them over?

it may be that our models of how considering credit works are different. but even if that is the case, im not sure im following you - the OP came on the 2nd cycle, the other team, the first cycle. 
this last thing is the important part. The OP was on the second cycle, and the other guy on the first. How could the OP get more considering credit if his initial offer wasn't in the lead? 
in my model of understanding of considering credit (which is more likely wrong than right), who is on first is irrelevant. to me, periodically (possibly each cycle after 24 hours but not necessarily), you get an increase in credit, as a bonus for being considered. i think this is a simple, time-agnostic function that would say, increase your current effort by 1%. i dont think getting on earlier helps you at all, at the time considering credit is awarded. to me, time only helps by getting more awards.

i believe considering credit was put in place (i wish i could remember who put it in place, tarek or seble) to make last cycle poaching harder. with that goal, i would expect a simple implementation. something where, at a point in time, all you need to know is current effort - now THAT is simple. when i had a battle that convinced me considering credit was % based, not a constant, it made me think (like so many times in my HD career) - how would admin have implemented this? i struggle to see a simple implementation where the accumulation itself (rather than total accumulation) is time-sensitive or time aware. if the guy is considered for 5 cycles, give him 1 HV of credit? 10 cycles, 2HVs? its simple until you get to what-ifs. what if a guy gets knocked off and comes back on, do you start over? it becomes pretty difficult to come up with a formula - especially if you are thinking its a % increase, like i think it is - that seems more fair and simple than simply giving all considered players in cycle X a Y% increase.

i realize by that logic, considering credit could not EVER result in a come-from-behind win. i think we (the community) used to explain sims winning following leading scholarship messages, by considering credit. but i dont think considering credit is that big, and i dont think that is the justification - rather, that sims are doing something buggy or that we are not aware of, or there is some issue with scholarship messages - that is NOT tied to having a ton of money in, rather, some other circumstance we have yet to identify.

i really have no support for any of this, had 1 battle that convinced me considering credit was a % based over-time increase, and at the time i tried to think of a model that explained all i attributed to scholarship message weirdness - getting changed messages without justification - and whatever data i had at the time, it ruled out a considering credit model where your accumulations (individually, not total) were based on the time considered. i had several data points back then, some personal some from multiply repeated scenarios on the forums, back years ago, so i dont remember the details. while i was not very confident in my considering credit model, i was very confident the default model i had assumed (you get credit for being considered longer) did not explain what i saw in scholarship mesasges - although, i was similarly confident my model did not explain it, either. i basically concluded something else had to be going on with scholarship messages, and thus, just made up a model for considering credit that seems most likely from an implementation standpoint.

now that ive had to wrack my brain to remember a few years back, im sort of glad i remember all those scholarship message weirdnesses people were talking about back then, that maybe are just accepted now (like sims coming from behind to win), or a coaches getting new, conflicting messages when both coaches came on the board and swore neither did anything in that time. whatever the issue is there, is possibly the issue coaches are experiencing in larger battles, who knows. but its not the first time scholarship messages have come into question - weve just never been given a decent answer, why. im pretty sure someone had pursued the sims coming from behind with CS but got nowhere...

3/19/2013 11:48 PM
without reading that whole thing:

if the OP was behind in cycle 1 and 2, and didn't put in more effort, and had worse prestige: how could he have gotten more considering credit?

3/19/2013 11:52 PM
Posted by coach_billyg on 3/19/2013 6:10:00 PM (view original):
Posted by dedelman on 3/19/2013 4:42:00 PM (view original):
b2dc-- thanks for the ticket re-post.  This was the situation I was in-- over $100K went into this kid from the 2 schools combined.  If CS is correct here, it looks like the scholarship emails just kind of spaz out in a high-stakes battle. 

Which means that if
     (a) you're in a high-stakes battle, and
     (b) WotS says "struggling,"
then you can have no reliable clue where you are in the battle.

i just dont believe this is the case, there are too many big time battles happening every recruiting season, for this to happen with any sort of consistency. there could be a rare bug but its DEFINITELY not expected behavior, as CS implies. the odds are far higher the guy answering had his head up his *** - even if it was seble himself (which is decently likely)
to this and your post above it, I agree 100%. We'd all have had this happen before at some point. I've been in ~50 major ($100K+ spent total) d1 battles, and never seen this scenario before.
3/20/2013 12:47 AM
Posted by wronoj on 3/19/2013 11:48:00 PM (view original):
without reading that whole thing:

if the OP was behind in cycle 1 and 2, and didn't put in more effort, and had worse prestige: how could he have gotten more considering credit?

if he was slightly ahead (but just below the threshold for the slightly ahead scholarship message), at the time of the tied message. if considering credit is a % increase in current credit, plain and simple, then prestige has already factored in, and the time you put that effort in (earlier or later) would have already factored in, too. 
3/20/2013 2:53 PM
just FYI for anyone still reading, it looks like i correctly guessed the considering credit model (amazing how much being a programmer can help in this game, from a reverse engineering standpoint)

heres the ticket:

Hi,
Has anything changed in the last couple years regarding the relative value of home and campus visits?

Also, there has been some question lately on the forums regarding the basic structure of considering credit. A few comments have been made individually over time, but the most basic understanding seems to elude us. Its clear that you get some effort over time, but would you be able to give any high level information on the mechanics? Does a school get credit just for being considered, or is it based on how much effort they have in? Also, if two schools are in a battle, and one is winning, can considering credit catch up the other school, assuming they had been on the player an extra day and a half? Basically, do you get credit for being considered as you go - so at a certain point in time, if 2 schools are considered and 1 is winning - they get as much or more considering credit as the other? Or would you like, get some bonus for being considered 2 days in a row, that would allow a school to come from behind without doing anything? 

Thanks for the help!
Jeff
3/20/2013 2:13 PM Customer Support
Jeff,

No, nothing has changed regarding the value of recruiting actions. 

As for the second question, basically you get a small percentage boost for all past actions if you're on the considering list for a player. So the amount of the boost depends on the amount of effort put in. Each school on the list gets the same percentage boost, so I don't believe there's a scenario where the leading team would lose its lead based purely on that boost.

 


anyone reading that differently than i am?

 
3/20/2013 4:16 PM
So - the considering credit is a % of past effort.  It's the same % for everyone the guy is considering but a guy that has in say, 6 CVs, would have roughly 3x the considering credit than the guy who had 2 CVs.

All other things being equal....

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